Batman Kickstarter (w/discussion of FOMO sales method)

san il defanso wrote:

charlest wrote: I'm not sure at all it would have sold like gangbusters. There are quality games coming out that dont' take off at all. Battle for Rokugan, a new Tom Jolly area control design from FFG, has received some rave reviews and praise from purchasers, but it hasn't taken off in the slightest and will be forgotten in 6 months. It doesn't have minis or any sense of wow factor.

Sag - have you seen this thread: boardgamegeek.com/thread/1320175/why-doe...dang-much-confession

I'm betting you guys are calling bullshit?

I don't fundamentally understand why you guys think Petersen had an obligation to make a cheap version of the game so that it could go retail through standard channels. If you believe he did not have this obligation, then you probably would admit that Kickstarter was a necessity to get the game produced, right?

Another example is Kingdom Death Monster. No way a publisher would pony up for the GW-quality minis in that game.

7th Continent is another game where the creators discussed taking the design to standard publishers and they wanted them to strip the game down. This is a game about exploring an island -content - and they felt the experience would be compromised (which from my experience playing the game, is likely true).

Charlie, I think a lot of your argument is really sound, but this particular post seems to imply that it's necessary for games to have really big miniatures to stand out at all these days. Is that an implication you meant to make, or am I reading into your post?

I don't disagree with that assertion, but if that's true this hobby will truly leave me behind. I just don't have the space or the money to continue in the arms race that publishers are committed to running. That's a real bummer if production is what makes games memorable anymore.

I don't think it's necessary, but I think it helps. I think it is difficult for a game to standout in the current state of the industry, so every single game needs a strong hook. Those that don't quickly fade.

Cthulhu Wars' hook was its ridiculously oversized miniatures. It had people shocked, discussing it, and excited.

Games can still accomplish this without miniatures. A game I just posted about it in the games played thread, A Tale of Pirates, hooked me and got me to check it out due to a cardboard 3D pirate ship, real-time play where your character is a sand-timer, and a kind of legacy element where new scenarios introduce new concepts. It's an affordable, regularly distributed title.

Seal Team Flix has a hook of providing a serious and unique setting for a dexterity game, coupled with some really rad looking mini games and what appears to be a promising campaign mode.

What would be the hook of another game that appears similar to Chaos in the Old World coming from FFG? Particularly when Chaos was still in print at the time of the publication of Cthulhu Wars. That's nonsensical at minimum.

I honestly believe, perhaps incorrectly, that Cthulhu Wars needed Kickstarter to succeed. And I'm ever grateful it did succeed as it's one of my top 10 games.

I think Charlie is saying that some designers are unwilling to make concessions in order to get a publisher to bite. Sometimes that's the right call, sometimes not... I myself worked on a game for a LONG time, and was *this* close to getting a contract on it; but every time, the big complaint was that the game took too long to play. And every time I hacked away at it, the game got worse, as it got shorter. That of course could say just as much about my abilities as a designer, but you get my point. If I wanted to turn my life into a nightmare, I could launch my own Kickstarter and make the game exactly as I envision it. But right now, I don't want to set my life on fire and read angry comments from entitled backers.

I agree, Nate. The Wiz War thread has me missing that game a little. I've been keeping an eye on ebay for one of the Chessex versions. Games can be a lot of fun without being a full blinged-out boat. A miniatures table top game, I understand wanting higher quality models, though even then not necessary, but painting and modelling is a big part of that hobby. A board game though, can use almost any sort of token.

Mr. White wrote: Why not release a modest version of the board game through traditional means...then just run a KS campaign for the big ass monsters to us as an option for those that wanna upgrade?

seems win-win....for consumers.

More money to be made the current KS way though, so that way it goes.

Why should Mr. Petersen have any obligation not to make the game as he sees fit? I'm sure there are numerous considerations that go into this game, but I can attest that the size of the monsters if befitting a game about Great Old Ones, so that is nice.

Likewise, what about other games, like Kingdom Death: Monster. There is no way a company is going to put that game out with those minis -- they are GW quality. Or Dungeon Degenerates -- who in their right mind is going to publish that?

That being said, I think that there is too much stuff on Kickstarter right now. I like it because I can get some weird stuff on there that probably wouldn't have been published otherwise.

Thanks for clarifying Charlie. I think those are really good points.

I'm the type who thinks that Cthulu Wars is just as absurd and indulgent in its production as Batman, but that's my problem, not anyone else's. I do think it's a real screw-job how Batman is going KS exclusive. That's not a good deal for consumers in any universe, and at some point every game needs to be a product that people can practically fit into their lives. If your business model is such that you can't even put a game in stores, I have a lot of follow-up questions about that.

Cthulhu Wars is at least available at retail, and from what I've seen the various Kickstarter campaigns have given people the option to buy older expansion content. It's still absurdly expensive, but at least you have the option of waiting.

But, if it wasn't a good deal for consumers, then I assume that it wouldn't meet the funding goal and then wouldn't get made, right? So, there are several people who are finding value in the way that the offering is made -- at the very least, it removes the need to track down expansion content.

There are tons of board games that don't meet their funding goals.

Think I'm bowing out.
I don't have a dog in the KS fight at all and could care less if people want to buy these games. However, I do agree that a lot of these titles don't seem to need KS to come to market and I do question why they are on this platform, as I see it only about the money. That's on me though.

Carry on.

Space Ghost wrote: But, if it wasn't a good deal for consumers, then I assume that it wouldn't meet the funding goal and then wouldn't get made, right? So, there are several people who are finding value in the way that the offering is made -- at the very least, it removes the need to track down expansion content.

There are tons of board games that don't meet their funding goals.

Maybe? I'm not sure one follows the other. People behave against their own interests all the time, though not consciously. Rather we are good at talking ourselves into believing something is good for us when it isn't.

Of course, I admit that the way Kickstarter is structured in general works against how I tend to consume things in the first place. I concede that I'm mostly looking at my own perspective here.

Dungeon Degenerates is a good example of game that probably got wider appeal due to Kickstarter. Back in the day, it would have been awesome to have Kickstarter for some games from small companies:

City of Chaos
Capes & Cowls

Let's not pretend that Kickstarter boasts a steady stream of weird, left-field outsider games. 95% of the games on Kickstarter are fucking generic as hell, with generic artwork and generic gameplay that wouldn't be at all out of place in the lineup of an Iello or Asmodee or another similar company that churns out stupid inoffensive chaff.

Mr. White wrote: Think I'm bowing out.
I don't have a dog in the KS fight at all and could care less if people want to buy these games. However, I do agree that a lot of these titles don't seem to need KS to come to market and I do question why they are on this platform, as I see it only about the money. That's on me though.

Carry on.

I don't even disagree, but what else should a business do? I mean that Batman Kickstarter is already at $2.6 million with more than 11,000 backers. What other board games even sell that many copies in their life cycle or bring in that kind of money? Why would it make sense to release it through traditional means?

Compare this to Imperial Assault -- if you like that and carry on with the product line, you are going to spend a lot more than $320 over the course. It is just spread out over time you will be hard pressed to get as much content. I just see them both as two different approaches to the same thing -- getting a lot of my money (but that is why companies are in business).

The sad thing, which I can relate to, is the passing of more singular, unique designs that don't require overproduced minis or some ungodly amount of expansions.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. I don't think that we need to do away with Kickstarter altogether. And there are a lot of games that definitely are better off being sold somewhere besides retail. Heck, Eon Games originally made Cosmic Encounter available through mail order. We need that kind of stuff in the hobby to keep it functioning and to allow innovation to continue. Other avenues for publication are overall a good thing.

But I don't buy that someone's "vision" with regard to production needs to always be respected, or that the fact that a game funded several times over means it is an overall positive for the market. I fear that rather than flattening the market to allow smaller games to compete with larger ones, this use of Kickstarter is creating lots of different tiers of gamers, based on what we are willing to spend to own something. Increasingly those tiers are less interested in engaging in the hobby the way the other tiers do.

Motorik wrote: Let's not pretend that Kickstarter boasts a steady stream of weird, left-field outsider games. 95% of the games on Kickstarter are fucking generic as hell, with generic artwork and generic gameplay that wouldn't be at all out of place in the lineup of an Iello or Asmodee or another similar company that churns out stupid inoffensive chaff.

I don't see anyone saying that. I see more sentiment that Kickstarter should not exist than people exclaiming how wonderful it is. Personally, I'm arguing for somewhere in the middle, and that Kickstarter has value and worth to our hobby.

Regarding CW and publishers, I was playing a prototype with Sam Bailey (Forbidden Stars designer and former FFG employee) at GenCon last year and CW came up. He said when he was still at FFG that Sandy Petersen pitched Cthulhu Wars to FFG and they turned him down. Now, perhaps Sandy was unwilling to compromise and that's why they rejected him, but to say that CW didn't try the publisher route first is certainly untrue.

The fact is, there are quite a few great to really good games coming out on Kickstarter every year that would not exist without the platform. Many of us benefit from people putting faith in this vaporware so we can later pick it up at retail, secondary market, or in a subsequent re-print Kickstarter. Look down your noses all you want at those paying through the nose for an idea or a box full of minis, but don't lose sight of how you've profited. I'm surprised Batman is getting this much hate, when it's based on a solid game design. Everything here is the model of a good Kickstarter project, minus the KS "exclusivity". If you don't like the pressure of FOMO, stay away and you can always purchase it on the secondary market for a premium if it turns out to be the bees knees. Or, if it does really well, I have no doubt there could be a reprint KS in the future.

I'm personally all-in at the moment, though I'm on the fence about dropping the comparatively over-priced add-ons. But, likely I'll keep that pledge and just leave the add-ons in shrink until I make up my mind. Re-sell on this should not be an issue, even if the game isn't that great...because Batman minis.

Thanks to Kickstarter, this forum has been really damned active the past couple days.