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Batman Kickstarter (w/discussion of FOMO sales method)

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07 Mar 2018 13:51 #264905 by drewcula
Replied by drewcula on topic Batman Kickstarter
None of us are privy to Monolith's finances. Which would be relevant to this discussion. Without knowing the cost of the Batman IP license, there's just a lot of speculation and assumption.

Loosely tangential:
While I don't know the specifics for Mantic games, I know their IP license for The Walking Dead wasn't cheap and it effects their bottom line. For comparison, I know their license for Mars Attacks was much much lower. Even still, it wasn't renewed. I don't know the expensive for their Hellboy license.
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07 Mar 2018 13:56 #264906 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Batman Kickstarter

Gary Sax wrote: 7th continent also had the big benefit to me of being a 2nd kickstarter on a more proven product with really good buzz from people whose tastes align with mine (e.g. Charlie).


If it makes you feel any better, I'm philosophically conflicted on 7th Continent at the moment. I think I'm going to write a full on article at some point on it in the near future so I can work this out. It's simultaneously brilliant and aggravating. I think my first 20ish hours with the game were great, but I'm not sure overall how to assess it fairly.
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07 Mar 2018 14:00 #264908 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Batman Kickstarter
Loosely tangential to the Loosely tangential:

Last night I found out Neil Marshall is directing the new Hellboy movie. I don't have an interest in Hellboy, but I do have an interest in Neil Marshall films. I've missed him since 2010's Centurion (don't watch too much TV, so didn't follow him to the small screen).

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07 Mar 2018 14:27 - 07 Mar 2018 14:27 #264915 by Motorik
Replied by Motorik on topic Batman Kickstarter

drewcula wrote: None of us are privy to Monolith's finances. Which would be relevant to this discussion. Without knowing the cost of the Batman IP license, there's just a lot of speculation and assumption.


Okay. If the Batman IP is so prohibitively expensive that Monolith has to callously exploit FOMO in order to recoup the cost of obtaining it, then that's actually far, far fucking worse than what we're already complaining about.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2018 14:27 by Motorik.

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07 Mar 2018 14:53 #264925 by Almalik
Replied by Almalik on topic Batman Kickstarter
I've got almost no issues with the Batman kickstarter - the only dickish move is the Kickstarter exclusivity. If the distributor mark ups kill the viability at retail, they could set up a web store and could easily print extra copies to sell directly via that. I would bet that selling directly later at an increased cost wouldn't even hurt their kickstarter that much, there are enough interested consumers that would want to save money that it would still do big numbers -minus however many copies are being purchased with the intent to flip for profit later on. Conan and Mythic Battles both were big kickstarters without the exclusivity (although MB turned out to be exclusive after the fact).

Of course, it is certainly easier to sell them all at once and not have to worry about warehousing stock, and shipping individual orders
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07 Mar 2018 16:24 - 07 Mar 2018 16:25 #264937 by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Batman Kickstarter
I don't understand why this game has everyone's panties in a wad. It's not like you are never going to get a chance to play it. 10,000 gamers are going to have a copy of it and are going to be looking for people to play it with to justify the purchase. You will probably cross paths with one of them eventually. And if you really like it and need to own it, just wait a few years. You'll be able to pick it up used for like half the price when folks start dumping it to bankroll the next Blockbuster game - which will probably be just yet another reskin of the same game. Seriously, Conan is like $75 now. Same thing will happen to the Batman game.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2018 16:25 by ubarose.
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07 Mar 2018 16:43 #264943 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Batman Kickstarter

ubarose wrote: I don't understand why this game has everyone's panties in a wad. It's not like you are never going to get a chance to play it. 10,000 gamers are going to have a copy of it and are going to be looking for people to play it with to justify the purchase. You will probably cross paths with one of them eventually. And if you really like it and need to own it, just wait a few years. You'll be able to pick it up used for like half the price when folks start dumping it to bankroll the next Blockbuster game - which will probably be just yet another reskin of the same game. Seriously, Conan is like $75 now. Same thing will happen to the Batman game.


Conan base game is $75 now primarily because it doesn't have the stretch goals and extra content. With stretch goals its several hundred. Like Blood Rage and Zombicide, I'm not sure it will be dropping anytime in the foreseable future.

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07 Mar 2018 16:47 #264944 by Almalik
Replied by Almalik on topic Batman Kickstarter
Lots of folks upset they can't play with the skeletons on the box if they get the retail version, I guess.
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07 Mar 2018 16:54 - 07 Mar 2018 17:59 #264945 by Frohike
Replied by Frohike on topic Batman Kickstarter
My main problem with this "new" model (massive one-time purchase of gradually supported material) is that I'm no longer just gambling on the quality of the core game but on the ongoing support for all of the material bolted onto it that I'm also buying simultaneously.

I remember actually feeling relieved when Monolith came through with Conan because without any kind of critical backlash or potential impact on Monolith's bottom line, there was next to no incentive for them to fully deliver on this front if they had decided to just take the money and move on. I mean, seriously. Support for that giant box of extra KS material was dicey for a bit longer than felt comfortable. I'm glad they have a longer term, grown-up business plan for these products, but it was eye-opening for me. I'm fine with this happening when someone releases a $70 core through normal channels, plans for expansions, then drops support. It's a different ballgame when an entire product line can hit a dead end without putting much of a dent in anything but the funds of those who initially supported it. I'm not saying that the Conan campaign necessarily steered toward that path but I did catch a glimpse of it while waiting for the scenarios to come in.

It's telling that SUSD, despite the good intentions behind their caveat emptor moment, actually failed to see that Monolith did in fact support Conan. Why? Because it happened on Monolith's clubhouse forum and communications/campaigns aimed at original backers. There's a growing transparency & echo chamber problem here, I think. The more competent and less sheisty producers will create good material despite this, but others may prove less competent or trustworthy & take advantage (or simply fail). As I've discovered with something like Massive Darkness, fans are also surprisingly willing to band-aid over development problems, further masking this growing blind spot of accountability.

"Big bang" releases have gradually become less common in the software development world because they're risky. It's surprising to see this methodology gain traction in this sphere but understandable when most of the risk is absorbed by the funders and insulated by exclusivity.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2018 17:59 by Frohike.
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07 Mar 2018 17:03 #264948 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman Kickstarter
I have certainly benefited from Kickstarter backers without normally taking any risks. I successfully kickstarted the deluxe reprint of The Vesuvius Incident and got exactly what I was hoping for even though the guy who initiated (I guess I don't know the right term for this) the Kickstarter lost a few grand due to an unexpected production issue. I also kickstarted Ninja Wars, which didn't even make the initial goal.

Since then, I haven't kickstarted anything, but I have bought several Kickstarted products that became available after the Kickstarter, either through retail or direct from the publisher. Camp Grizzly, Lords of Gossamer and Shadow (a role-playing game), Saltlands, and the Veronica Mars movie. I was happy with all of those products, and also happy to not risk any of my own money during the Kickstarter.

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07 Mar 2018 18:45 #264961 by cdennett
Replied by cdennett on topic Batman Kickstarter

ubarose wrote: I don't understand why this game has everyone's panties in a wad. It's not like you are never going to get a chance to play it. 10,000 gamers are going to have a copy of it and are going to be looking for people to play it with to justify the purchase. You will probably cross paths with one of them eventually. And if you really like it and need to own it, just wait a few years. You'll be able to pick it up used for like half the price when folks start dumping it to bankroll the next Blockbuster game - which will probably be just yet another reskin of the same game. Seriously, Conan is like $75 now. Same thing will happen to the Batman game.

Being pretty much the only Ameritrash game buyer in my group, I've still not played many KS games, notably Blood Rage. And I probably never will, as I'm unwilling to shell out $500+ for the exclusives and would be too aggravated about the gated content that I'd probably never even use. But that's on me, really, as I hypocritically purchased Rising Sun that followed the same predatory model. I'm an adult making my own decisions on how I spend my spare cash and am aware of how I'm being manipulated. Doesn't mean I don't often rebuke myself for my Kickstarter therapy...

What it comes down to is that while the vast majority of KS games can be bought at a discount later, the good ones will usually cost you a lot more if there was exclusive content after people determine it's actually good. As our resident Dad Sag would be quick to remind us, though, so long as you're willing to pay for the exorbitant prices for the great KS games after the fact, you'd still end up saving money by not Kickstarting all the "hot" games and doing this. I think this is generally true, unless you are very quick to flip games that end up being meh...you'll almost always get your purchase price back unless the game is a real dog.

I never knew Andrew Tullsen lost money on The Vesuvius Incident, I backed that too. That sucks, as it was a really great production for what it was.
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07 Mar 2018 18:53 - 07 Mar 2018 18:54 #264963 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Batman Kickstarter
Your best bet is to get into the 2nd kickstarter tbh. The problem is sometimes there isn't a second one. And even then a lot of times it's still asking you to pay like 300 dollars which is tough even if it is a known quality.
Last edit: 07 Mar 2018 18:54 by Gary Sax.
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07 Mar 2018 18:58 #264965 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Batman Kickstarter
So.... who's pumped for the Zombicide in Space kickstarter?

/hides under table
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07 Mar 2018 18:59 #264966 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Batman Kickstarter
FOMO at full swing here!

Really, lots of reason not to get this. I mean, you got spare budget? Want the minis? Die hard batman fans? Just get it. The game might not be perfect, but again, it's about playing Batman with your friends.

For me, it's too expensive , and it's a brawl game, which isn't covering enough of Batman. Also, very few information on how the game will incorporate the villains in a Batman-y way. I don't think scenarios will cut it for me without some inbetween game plotting and revenge.

And again, I dislike IP-based minis game. Less feeling of owning the minis.

From board gaming perspective, I'm kind of a mimimalist guy who appreciate games that can bring a lot with the least amount of stuff.

Couldn't care less about it being KS or even KS exclusive.
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08 Mar 2018 08:56 #265001 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Batman Kickstarter

hotseatgames wrote: So.... who's pumped for the Zombicide in Space kickstarter?

/hides under table


A higher priced inferior Space Hulk. Bet it raises 3 million.
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