What MUSIC are you listening to? ARCHIVE

Music like all art is about expressing emotions. That is all that matters. Technical proficiency will help some people do that. However, it can also hinder expression or used to cover up for a lack of it.

moss_icon wrote:

JonJacob wrote:

Anti-msucianship for the sake of itself is the hallmark of punk... cool ideas but awfull playing. The notion that you can't be technically proficient and emotional is an anti-intellectual load of garbage.

technical proficiency is the most boring thing in the world. OOH LOOK AT ME I CAN PLAY GUITAR WELL. well good for you, you tedious bastard! i don't listen to music to hear someone who is good at stuff, i listen to music to hear people who are fucking rubbish at stuff, like me, so i can relate to them. they are people like me, they don't have time to learn how to play an instrument properly as they have no money, or drink too much, or are cunts, or don't give a shit. that's good stuff, that's what i want, failure, miserable failure. for ever and ever and ever.

You've just cut yourself off from hundreds of years of amazing music (European classical, indian classical, Coltrane and pretty much all jazz really). Talent shouldn't be embarassing and does not equal a "look at me" attitude", if that's all you know of virtuosity then your missing out. You must listening to Malmsteen instead of Mozart, Vai instead of Bach...

I'm talking about respect for both (unless you only read what you quoted). If I think the lyrics or songs are good enough I'll over look the technique without question.

If you like mediocrity in all your art perhaps you should snuggle up to some warm embers reading a Clancy novel and listening to Nickelback (they're lyrics suck too so you should love them) maybe a poster of dogs playing pool on the wall and Full House on the tube so you don't feel alone.

But don't worry, you're far from alone.

So, anyone want to sign my internet petition to get John Mikl Thor's "We Accept the Challenge" made available as Rock Band DLC? Anyone?

Citadel wrote:

Music like all art is about expressing emotions. That is all that matters.

Strongly agree.

Technical proficiency will help some people do that.

Agree, except I'd remove the word "some".

However, it can also hinder expression

Oh hell no. Guys that are spectacular but boring like Satriani and Vai aren't hindering their expression at all.
They're just not good songwriters, or are uninterested in songs that aren't basically guitar solos. Their art, their rules. Doesn't have to interest me.

Nobody says "wow, I wish I could play worse on this track!". Some people don't ever say "I wish I could play better" or *follow through* on making that happen, but becoming a better player isn't going to dilute your art.

Unless you become a wanker about it, I guess.

or used to cover up for a lack of it.

I doubt this really happens, either.


Maybe you don't need to be good to say what you're trying to say. Joe Strummer played his guitar fucking backwards for his whole career because he couldn't be bothered to relearn it left-handed. Luckily Mick Jones could play the trickier parts, and Joe could own the stage like he was born to. But I absolutely refuse to believe that being able to play better would have made him worse at what he did.

mjl1783 wrote:

So, anyone want to sign my internet petition to get John Mikl Thor's "We Accept the Challenge" made available as Rock Band DLC? Anyone?

Awesome! He's from right here in sunny Vancouver. Mediocrity on every level.



Incidentally, my version of good doesn't equal fast. There is knowledge of harmony, taste, style, time, tempo, dynamics... there are a lot of qualities to consider and only on a balanced look at what the artist has to offer is anything accomplished. But the ability to actually play does become a focus at some point. No one wants to listen to someone who has NEVER played before... you want some level of competency... the question is, how much is enough?

Technique and expression example 1: Lenny Breau playing Bouree in E by Bach with some improvisation (strike that... a lot of imrpovisation)



Example 2: Mike Marshall w/ Hamilton DeHolanda playing Blackberry Blossom and some Jacob do Bandolim mixed in



Example 3: Glenn Gould playing Bach



Vai and Malmsteen and Satriani... please, that is not virtuosity... it's just speed.

Damn you guys, who cares? We're not going to change each other's minds about this. Did anyone come to this thread to actually listen to something they may not have already heard, or is everyone just interested in being a know-it-all armchair critic and talking shit about what everyone else listens to?

mjl1783 wrote:

Damn you guys, who cares? We're not going to change each other's minds about this. Did anyone come to this thread to actually listen to something they may not have already heard, or is everyone just interested in being a know-it-all armchair critic and talking shit about what everyone else listens to?

I've listened to maybe 5 or 6 new bands (to me) since yesterday and may listen to some of them more now that I know who they are. I'm not afraid to let it be known that I don't know everything.

Besides, it's fun and it's trash. I'm happier knowing about it then not (and I may have to check out this wooten album you talked about if he actually shows some restraint on it).

mjl1783 wrote:

Damn you guys, who cares? We're not going to change each other's minds about this. Did anyone come to this thread to actually listen to something they may not have already heard, or is everyone just interested in being a know-it-all armchair critic and talking shit about what everyone else listens to?

Dude, that's what the Internet is for!

But seriously,

I'm not here to talk shit about what other people like. I just hate the insidious idea that "playing better makes you worse". It's bullshit, plain and simple. I'm happy to get off that and talk about bands again.

I strongly recommend the Maytals. Everyone needs more vintage reggae.

Well, if it's all in good fun, that's cool. It seems a little on the serious side, however, and it's really a dumb thing to argue over for realz. I don't think you'd like the Wooten album. He shows restraint, but it's EXTREMELY cheese-y.

That's what I like about it, though. Sometimes cheese-y music is fun to listen to. Cheese-y movies are fun, why not music? Take Macho Man Randy Savage's rap album, for example. Yes, it's AWFUL, but it's entertainingly awful, and isn't that what it's really all about?

Wow, very interesting discussion!

I think the punk attitude of "do it yourself", was really refreshing. It basically means you don't have to wait for years to be able to just go out there and play and have fun. It's not that being good makes you worse, but more like not being as good doesn't stop you from making music, playing live and enjoying yourself.

Playing an instrument very well is mostly a matter of hard work and many hours of dedication but basically anyone can do it. Playing the instrument and being able to actually transmit feeling is something else entirely, and comes from within. No amount of training will change that...

Now, having both is great, but if I had to chose which to listen to, I choose "feeling".

Of course, sometimes the bad playing gets in the way of the good songwriting and feeling, so there's a limit there. For example, I can't stand the Sex Pistols but I love the Ramones. The Ramones played pretty simple music, but they played it very well. Even on the first record there's an acceptable level of proficiency. And as "simple" as they seem I've seen countless covers from bands that just don't get it and just wreck the songs...

And I also apply this line of thinking to other kinds of music. Were it not for this attitude I've never would have tried to make an experimental instrumental band with my friends. At a time where my trumpet teacher was telling me not to play live because I still had so much to study, etc... I was rehersing 3 times a week and playing live 1-2 times a month just having fun, making noise (or not), and learning so much, but also just laughing at the conventions and making our own music. So I was crap some times (I didn't even have the necessary mouth endurance at first) but the chemistry that developed between us was amazing. Had I wait 5-10 years learining how to play the trumpet properly I would have missed all that....

JonJacob wrote:

You've just cut yourself off from hundreds of years of amazing music (European classical, indian classical, Coltrane and pretty much all jazz really).

i like some jazz, but more so because those guys were just fucking about. those jazz bastards weren't making music to impress people with their trombone skills. there was nothing technically proficient about miles davis or coltrane, at least in what i have heard anyway. it was all over the shop, human, and utterly out of the box.

If you like mediocrity in all your art

you missed my point, but don't worry, most people do as i tend to mis-express myself. mediocrity is not desirable, but a mess of creativity and and fuckedupedness is.

I think the punk attitude of "do it yourself", was really refreshing. It basically means you don't have to wait for years to be able to just go out there and play and have fun. It's not that being good makes you worse, but more like not being as good doesn't stop you from making music, playing live and enjoying yourself.

Well, DIY tends to mean different things. Fugazi are probably the first band people think about when they hear DIY used in reference to punk. Not just because it's simple music, but because they did all these different things to keep their shows cheap and accessible, like playing in smaller venues, and not selling merchandise.

I guess I don't see it as a punk thing necessarily. Bluegrass music has this sort of attitude as well; parking lot pickin' with a banjo you made out of an empty paint thinner can is pretty DIY, wouldn't you say?

Where I break with the whole punk attitude is the exclusive sort of attitude that seems to swirl around it. Music musn't be intricate or complex, or too clean, or too accessible. Why? It just seems so arbitrary. Just look at John Lydon, he dropped out of the straight punk thing early on and made some really bright, slick records (hell, he even had Steve Vai playing on one), and PiL probably ended up being even more influential than the Pistols.

At the same time, I don't have much patience for people that look down their noses at simple music for no other reason than that it's simple. I also don't buy that a higher degree of skill helps you express yourself better musically. You only need to be as good as your musical "voice" requires you to be. How would being good at guitar have helped Joe Strummer make The Clash a better album? It wouldn't have. On the other hand, how good would Queen's records be if Brian May sucked at guitar?

there was nothing technically proficient about miles davis or coltrane

Whoa, what? Are you serious? They may not have been virtuosic, but they were definitely technically proficient. If you think any asshole can just pick up a trumpet or sax and do what they did, then you really ought to re-think your definition of the term.

always serious. and always not really giving a shit.

"I guess I don't see it as a punk thing necessarily. Bluegrass music has this sort of attitude as well; parking lot pickin' with a banjo you made out of an empty paint thinner can is pretty DIY, wouldn't you say?"

I totally agree with this, in fact I apply this attitude to all the creative aspects of what I do. Any kind of music, and any kind of expression. Game design included...

"there was nothing technically proficient about miles davis or coltrane

Whoa, what? Are you serious? They may not have been virtuosic, but they were definitely technically proficient. If you think any asshole can just pick up a trumpet or sax and do what they did, then you really ought to re-think your definition of the term."

Speaking from experience here These guys were EXCELLENT players in a technical sense. To take a trumpet and get the sound Miles managed to get out of it is something that very few people will be able to do...