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TOPIC: Hearthstone Players!

Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 04:15 #260253

iguanaDitty wrote:
The only thing I play is Dungeon Run, it got me back to the game after a long absence. It's great. I hope they give it more content sometime.

I love the Dungeon run, and it's the most fun the solo game has ever been, but I do think they could have narrowed the range of treasures a little bit. Some uncertainty and power differential is important to keep it addictive, but at the moment it feels like there's just too many times when you have to nothing to pick that really fits with your deck.

Maybe I'm just being dumb but the stage 8 bosses seem pretty much impossible to beat without a lot of luck. It would help - and I've said this before - if you could see you path through the dungeon from the off. Would be a huge help in planning when you make your deck picks.

Enjoying the expansion as a whole so far: right now there seems a good mix of classes and decks, and nothing's really dominating or ruining the meta. Corridor Creeper is a minor problem simply because of its ubiquity - it's exactly the sort of every-deck card that Blizzard have said they want to avoid. I wouldn't be surprised to see it get a minor nerf in the near future.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 10:44 #260266

MattDP wrote:
I love the Dungeon run, and it's the most fun the solo game has ever been, but I do think they could have narrowed the range of treasures a little bit. Some uncertainty and power differential is important to keep it addictive, but at the moment it feels like there's just too many times when you have to nothing to pick that really fits with your deck.

Yeah it's a tough balancing act. What you say is true, but at the same time I feel like it would be a little too powerful to always get Jades or always get Cthulu. That said, the only consistent wins I've gotten are with Jade decks.

To your other point, I would love if, like Peter Whalen's first game Dream Quest, you would learn progressively more information about the later bosses as you played.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 11:53 #260271

The only boss I find utterly unbeatable is Xol. It's a guaranteed loss for me. Xol rolls "Imma Steal Yo Man" Beam like seven times and I lose. I think the goal is somehow to wait for Xol to play out a Howlfiend, then let Xol get the Quest finished, THEN damage the Howlfiend, so the Quest card is discarded. How I am supposed to do this as Priest without minions remains a mystery. The other Bosses I can handle or not, but at least it's a game. I am 0-6, 0-7 or so against Xol, and probably 75% against everyone else.

Corridor Creeper is problematic for a couple of reasons. It's very VERY good. Like, you want two of them in a lot of decks. 5/5 bodies are good right now. 5/5 bodies that cost like 2 or so, all the better. And it's a Beast. And it's "cost" is 7, so even Shaman wants it. Neutral!

...and it's Epic. That is the problem for me, from a game design perspective. I get why it's an Epic, it's a weird interaction, and the first we've seen of its type outside of Legendary (Bolvar Fordragon looks at the board while in hand turn over turn like Creeper; Solemn Vigil looks at the board, but resets on each turn; Thing From Below counts cards in hand or in deck). But couple those attractive qualities with this cost and you've made a problem for FPS players. Epics are overly difficult to obtain in HEARTHSTONE. They feel much rarer than they need to be, given how shitty most of them are, and they cost a LOT to craft. Crafting those two Creepers means not crafting eight Rares. You'd have to grind up 40 Rares to craft two Epics (Rare --> 20 Dust). Folks can complain about Bonemare being awesome, but it's accessible to everyone. Learn how to work with and around it. But Corridor Creeper is a Haves vs Have Nots concern, and that's bad for the game (cf Patches).
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 14:07 #260274

No argument with any of that... except the part about how shitty epics are. I think they've addressed that to the opposite extreme, in that epics are now required for many decks to be competitive. Look at the nine that came with K&C: Rummaging Kobold, Void Ripper, Shimmering Courser, Arcane Tyrant, Carnivorous Cube, Spiteful Summoner, Corridor Creeper, Grand Archivist, and Dragonhatcher.

Only the first three basically see no play and Void Ripper only because there are so many other answers to Spreading Plague right now and Druid isn't as prominent on the ladder as it used to be (although given the prominence of Priest with fat-assed minions, you'd think it would show up, but I digress.) Arcane Tyrant is a staple in Big Spell Mage and makes an appearance in other Mage decks. Cube is the foundational card of Cubelock and shows up in Hunter and Priest decks. Summoner and Archivist are the essential cards for Big Spell Priest and also make appearances in Mage decks. Creeper is everywhere. Dragonhatcher has been seen in janky Priest and Druid decks, usually with Malygos. That's a lot of situations where 2/3 of those cards are not only useful but essential to decks. I think the day of "weird Epic" left us a while ago. And this is to say nothing of things like Astral Tiger, Branching Paths, Dragon's Fury, Call to Arms, Twilight Acolyte, Psychic Scream, Fal'dorei Strider, Unstable Evolution, and, of course, Voidlord.

I think the fact that so many of them are that good just further proves your main point: It's hard to build competitive decks without legendaries. It's even harder when epics are as, if not more, important.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 14:30 #260277

Meanwhile, I had a great game today with my midrange Call deck vs. the standard aggro Call deck: hsreplay.net/replay/fCoGF2btsEGCcfoX24qG56

I finished my 40 Spells quest with the janky Shaman deck and am now trying to finish the 30 Minions at 2 or Less with my Call deck. I tried Quest Shaman for a while, but it's just too easy to destroy with everyone geared up against aggro Paladin. I ended up with an OK opening hand, except for getting the worst result on Maul. (Still totally worth it.) Dropping Protector into the face of two Dudes just makes turn 3 or 4 Creeper easier. He probably knew I had one in hand, just like he did, which is why he hesitated for so long to clear my girl, although why he decided to exchange Dudes on 3 rather than use the Blade so he could BoK his is a bit of a mystery. I, OTOH, gladly trade Creepers on 4 and play Lost and one of my Mauls (the other one ALSO got the worst result; still TOTALLY worth it (and useful in this game, too.)) I spent a long time trying to figure out how to play the Maul to protect my Steward so I could SAD into it, but didn't see a path.

It's kind of hilarious that Pallie aggro has become so prominent that many of them have taken to using Pompous Thespian, a heretofore Arena-only card, to protect themselves from the mirror. But Maul lets you remove that card. I played my second to put Taunt on the Jailor to force him to give me the Dudes. Of course, it also played right into his Divine Favor, so whatevs. 5 cards for 3 mana. Some good. Next turn I drop the Steward. Three bubbled Dudes isn't five bubbled Dudes, but it's still solid. When he did the Juggler/Call and the first two knives hit my Steward (1 in 6, both times), I was about to get apoplectic, but the last two knives went to me, which was perfect, so I suppose it balances out. And then Stegodon came through, letting me basically wreck his board on turn 7. Mmmm. Poison bubbles... [Homer drool.] Sounds like a homicidal Don Ho song. He Dirty Rats the best minion in my deck, which was fine with me, but he had also topdecked the Spellbreaker (sad trombone.) See how RNG is working out for both of us? It's almost like random draw is enough for a card game.

On turn 8, I'm an idiot. I should have Bladed the Juggler and hit face for six. The Creeper would have been almost free either way and he would have been 1/5 of his life closer to dying (meaning at 1 on the following turn, rather than 4.) But, yeah, game was over, regardless. I did screw up again, though, since I should have taken the opportunity to drop my 3 Dudes from the Jailor and gotten three closer to finishing my quest. I'm not sure why I'm so focused on quest completion these days, since the last 10 packs I've gotten, including the three free ones, have been worthless.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 15:09 #260287

Any criticism of the cards that revolves around how it affects F2P players doesn't register with me. I don't care about those people. I remember crying when I had to craft Azure Drakes back in the day. There is no instant gratification with a CCG. You gotta pay your dues if you want the cards and if you are too cheap to support the game buying cards then grind away motherfucker. It's easy for me to feel this way as I am way over the hump on my collection. I dust most of the rotated cards but the most key ones. I have everything I want except Valeera Fandral Kun. I am ok with that, gives me something to strive for.

I am hearing the most likely nerf to creeper is it will be YOUR minions. Wouldn't be too severe for flood decks like Shaman and Paladin though.

Playing Xol. If I am correct, you need to learn how his taunts match his card draw. Flummox=mind control. I cleared it with all the classes and had a real doozy with Warrior vs Darkness. I got the treasure restore my health and fill my board with legendaries. Had some sweet ones too. Then he stole Kel Thuzad and then another. Then nethered everything. The only way I can see beating all his defensive cards is how I did, fatigue.

Ladder I play mostly Warlock bouncing between Cube Lock and full Controlock with a smattering of Demonlock. Should be couple of weeks before I can craft Valeera. I have been itching to dig into the new Mill Rogue. Back in the day Mill Rogue was my goto. I guess I am that guy who doesn't want to just win, but leave my opponent frustrated as well. It is what it is
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 15:51 #260304

MacDirk Diggler wrote:
I am hearing the most likely nerf to creeper is it will be YOUR minions.

When the card was first previewed I misread it and assumed that it was "your" minions and then was utterly shocked to find out it was all minions, which is ridiculous. It's the sort of OP card that would get laughed out of one of those custom card threads on reddit (off course, I also think Bonemare should be a 3/4 or 3/3 but that's neither here nor there).

I don't think anyone is advocating that F2P players no longer have to grind, but the fact that the dust economy hasn't been adjusted to account for the increased number of cards being released per year is proving to be a significant barrier to new players. Right now I don't see how a new player is supposed to catch up when their quest-earned gold is split between Classic packs and all the current Standard-legal expansions, and the 100-gold-for-30-wins systems is more a second job rather than a feasible way for non-streamers to grind gold. My son plays every day and spends his gold as fast as he earns it and he does okay as long as he focuses on one class (he's a Hunter main), but saving for the next expansion so he can open 50+ packs? Forget about it. He's committed enough that I'd gladly buy him packs to help him catch up...except the value from packs is garbage and is asymptotically approaching "waste of fucking money," if it's not there already.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 16:15 #260313

I didn't mention Creeper in my long ass K&C article because I assumed it worked like Solemn Vigil, ie, it just looked at the current turn. The set was out for a few days before I realized it wasn't. That card is really REALLY good.

I paid my dues, my collection is sweet as hell. But I want to recommend this game to friends, and I feel like I can't unless I give them $100 so they can come even CLOSE to experiencing the game the way I do. That's the issue with really screwing F2P players. Also, on my kids accounts, I basically am F2P, and it's not a ton of fun right now. Literally Rank 20, playing a cobbled-together greedy Warrior deck with the cards my daughter has, I run into a collection-complete Cubelock deck that spams "Extraordinary" at me every time they do some ridiculous bullshit with Voidlords, Carrion Creeper, and Carnivorous Cube backed by double Spellstone. Like... how is that fun? How is this guy still at Rank 20? He must play one game a day.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 18:12 #260343

SebastianBludd wrote:
I don't think anyone is advocating that F2P players no longer have to grind, but the fact that the dust economy hasn't been adjusted to account for the increased number of cards being released per year is proving to be a significant barrier to new players. Right now I don't see how a new player is supposed to catch up when their quest-earned gold is split between Classic packs and all the current Standard-legal expansions, and the 100-gold-for-30-wins systems is more a second job rather than a feasible way for non-streamers to grind gold. My son plays every day and spends his gold as fast as he earns it and he does okay as long as he focuses on one class (he's a Hunter main), but saving for the next expansion so he can open 50+ packs? Forget about it. He's committed enough that I'd gladly buy him packs to help him catch up...except the value from packs is garbage and is asymptotically approaching "waste of fucking money," if it's not there already.

This. Plus Jeb's point about Rank 20 being infested with netdecks. Can you imagine being a new player, having spent however long trying to cobble together a halfway decent deck, only to run into Cubelock or Razakus and just get massacred? And not just once, but multiple times? I wouldn't blame anyone who quit right there. Yes, the reason those guys are still rank 20 is because they probably only play a couple games a day, if that, like I do. But they're also there because they had money to spend and dumped it on the latest netdeck and anyone coming into an "F2P" game will just get run over by them. I think the gold economy is skewed for an F2P game. I think the dust economy is skewed, period, which is why I only play 4 classes now and dust everything else. I wouldn't object to Blizzard simply reframing it as a P2P game, since that's what it is. I just kind of resent the offhand attitude that Team 5 takes to what is obviously a problem with their reward approach for what's supposed to be a game that you don't have to dump a bunch of $ into. It's the same attitude they take whenever anyone tells them that this or that card is obviously out of control. "The players will just work it out themselves!" And yet every other game that Blizzard currently produces (WoW, HotS, D3, SC2, Overwatch) is routinely patched every couple weeks, if not more often. Every other card game on the market takes advantage of its digital status and patches problems on a regular basis. But somehow HS is special.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 18:32 #260352

The game being harsh on new players (which I'm not) and F2P (which I am, aside from adventures) is a self-correcting problem.

They'll just quit. And when the weekly actives number tanks, Team 5 isn't going to get far by blaming the players then.

I voted with my feet a while ago, and I'm happy to report that most of the recent posts look like total Gibberish with Capitalized Words now. My son was an F2P trying to grind his way through a couple of expansions ago, but it just wasn't interesting enough for him. He kept running into the same problems, and this was over a year ago. Too many hot collections at scrub ranks, while he's trying to scrape up enough to buy some Rares.

I think I said this about 50 pages ago, but if "Rank" is the only factor in matchups, you're hosed. "Cost of Collection" should be in there somewhere, just to help balance out the interest.
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Hearthstone Players! 05 Jan 2018 20:34 #260366

The best part about not caring about ladder is that I don't have to chase cards.
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Hearthstone Players! 06 Jan 2018 02:02 #260375

And here's why Murloc decks are a complete crapshoot: hsreplay.net/replay/RwrGHVSKigKrNL32HUicEh

I went back to mine because it was taking too long to finish the stupid quest. It doesn't matter whether I win or lose with it. I can play out an assload of 1- and 2-mana frogs no matter what situation I'm in. My opening hand is fine. I have the quest (obvsly), Ice Fishing to refill, and a 2/3 Rockpool to start. I can't play a 1-mana frog on the first turn, anyway. Plus, I draw into Lookout, which keeps me rolling. And then I draw into Tidecaller and I know it's going to be a good game. But he plays Shadow Ascendant, which makes his Cleric far more of a problem, in the same way that Handbuff with Acolytes makes them extraordinarily powerful.

Tangent: I find it amusing that the best use Priest decks have found for Ascendant isn't a Zoo model, but midrange or control decks like Big Spell, which is what this is. It's also interesting that Dragon Priest has essentially become the identity of Priest, outside of Razakus, as both minion and spell decks employ them, since they're the best tribe that Priest has access to. I'd find it really cool if they decided to further develop the Arrakoa (Talonpriest, etc.) as the other tribe that Priest uses. /tangent

Landing Rockpool as planned removes the Ascendant, but Tar Creeper comes down. I'm not overly concerned about him drawing off the Cleric. It's mostly about me developing frogs (and, really, finishing the gold quest; not necessarily the Murloc one.) But Brrloc remains one of the most useful Murlocs ever and I'm on 4 by the end of my turn 4, which is OK. Megasaur arrives and I'm hoping for Poison or Attack so I can clear, but I get Health, which at least means my board will be more durable and I can grind his down. I draw Finja and play him, as I don't have much else. He's played an Acolyte, which means dragons are a thing, and I don't want his board to get too heavy. You want to leave something out that Finja can kill, but I'm also against a Priest, who's going to make that as difficult as possible. So I clear his board and leave the buffed Cleric and Finja, unable to meet and greet. He plays a Summoner and I finally know exactly what I'm facing. He gets a Sea Giant off a Mind Control.

But we're on turn 7 and I topdeck Flametongue. Lookout gets me Most Useful Murloc Ever and Finja does the suicide run to take out the Summoner and finish my (in game) quest. He decides prudence is the better part of valor and Bonemares the Giant into a 12/12. I topdeck the other Flametongue and use creative accounting to leave him with just the horsey before I drop the 8/8 with one mana remaining. In Quest Shaman, as with Minionless Hunter, it's always good to go off with at least one mana remaining so that you don't burn a card on the following turn. I end up with two 1/1s to make space in my hand, but the Vilefin is the best option because I can already see what's happening next turn if he doesn't have a Dragonfire. Of course, it's far more likely you're going to end up with no 1-mana Hunter spells or no good (or any) targets to cast them on, which is why Rhok'delar really kinda sucks.

Another 12/12 appears on his side, but 26 burst shows up on mine. If he draws Dragonfire, I'm in a spot, but I still have Oracle and Fishing to try to take advantage of the Seadevil and get as much back on the board as I can. Granted, when he trades Deathwing, a good chunk of beef is probably coming down that won't be affected by the Dragonfire at all, so the risk is still present. He clears what he can, gets 3 dragons down, and finally drops the Archivist and then concedes. Even a Mind Control or the other Amber probably wouldn't have saved him. I think he had one out on the Amber, which was Sleepy Dragon. Guess he didn't think it was worth trying.

I finished my gold quest and, as expected, the pack was worth 55 dust. Just awful.
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Hearthstone Players! 06 Jan 2018 17:03 #260416

And here's a perfect example of what we're talking about, using me as the bad guy: hsreplay.net/replay/77dW65LtQSjxLhHU7rBeJg

I'm rank 19 at the moment because, again, I don't get a lot of chance to play and when I do play, I often like to play janky shit to see how it works (like my bubble deck and, um, Shaman...) But I have the Win 3 with Any and Play 50 Priest cards quests, so I pull out Big Priest and decide to go on the ladder so that other people might have a chance. This guy gets on with a bog standard Zoo deck, barring the Twist, largely because it's cheap, efficient, and can be played quickly and easily. I totally get it. He has zero chance in this game. Ze. Ro. Even if it weren't a horrible matchup for Zoo, Big Priest is so far past this guy's sphere that he basically can do nothing but sit there and stew in frustration as I wait him out, wiping his board of everything that hits it, until I finally drop Y'Shaarj and the game ends. My deck didn't even function properly (no Barnes, no Essence, when Y'Shaarj did summon something, it was Barnes) and this guy still had no chance. Yes, I kind of BM'd at the end because I was trying to finish my damn quest. I hope he realized that's what was happening.

I'm totally in favor of deck quality being a measure for where you're ranked. Not only will it protect newer players from that kind of rampant destruction, but it will also see a lot of netdeckers hammered into submission as they realize that playing rank 10 players with Cubelock is a lot different than playing the newbs down in 19. Yes, you might end up at a ridiculous rank with your janky deck of all legendaries... but that's what Casual is for! If you want to play a goofy deck, stay out of Ranked unless you're good enough with that deck to play it for reals. Kripp is spot on here: clips.twitch.tv/AffluentHonestGaurBCouch
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Hearthstone Players! 07 Jan 2018 00:34 #260423

And as the codicil to all of this: I finish my two quests tonight (Win 3/50 Priest cards) for 100 gold, buy a pack... and get 40 dust. Just fucking awful.
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Hearthstone Players! 07 Jan 2018 13:42 #260441

Buying packs, what a sucker. Time to start saving! I'm at ~1200 so far. Gotta keep on that wheel.
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