Hearthstone Players!

I am not a big Trump supporter BA DUM TSSHSHSHHSHSHSHSSSHSHHSSHSSSH

But seriously folks, I don't think Trump has any more sense of the game than I do. He's a solid player and a pleasant enough personality, but I am not getting anything from him I don't see myself. Contrast with Firebat, ApxVoid, the team GNC crew (Nostam, Muzzy, Chakki, &c), even Zalae, though you have to watch to learn anything because he's so circumspect. There are things I like and don't like about Tainted Zealot. I like the cheap Spell Damage and the interaction with things like Warlock's clears are obvious, but it's a shitty, shitty late game draw. I would rather have Thalnos every time. That's me--I think Warlock is duking it out with Paladin for my least-played class.

My Big Priest got clobbered by a Jade Druid this AM, so I swapped for Deathrattle Rogue to try out Roll The Bones. It's OK. I am streaking to 16 so far from 18, but I am not sure Roll The Bones is better than Journey Below in this deck. I am using Jade too, but my Jade doesn't depend on Spirit, so I pack a Skulking Geist. I played against this weird armor-gaining, dead man's handing, DK Warrior thing that was doing OK and probably would kill me if it played Giants. But instead I just positioned Stealth guys well and killed him with an 8/8 Jade while in fatigue.

//edit: Some changes just announced by Blizzard to tame Druid, including this one:

Our team has discussed making a change to Ultimate Infestation since it feels bad to lose to. However, our data shows us how good each individual card performs in a deck relative to other cards in that deck. Spreading Plague ended up being the best performing card in Jade and Taunt Druid, Innervate was in the top three, and Ultimate Infestation was somewhere around the middle—but it felt much more powerful since it has a huge effect when played.

Kudos to Jackwraith on the Spreading Plague complaint. Druid's ability to stick around for big ridiculous spells is the issue. Spreading Plague costs 6 from 5, Innervate gives 1 temporary mana crystal, Warleader gives +2 attack only, Hex costs 4, and War Axe now costs 3.

us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/210294...-update-91-9-12-2017

It filled a hole and whenever cards fill a hole, there's a danger that that they enable everything else the class already does well. Among all of those expected nerfs, I was most intrigued by the comment in the Hex explanation about how Shaman "is lacking in both class identity and identifiable weaknesses." I agree with the latter, except that most Shaman decks are either reliant on totems, which should be a good thing. or a single card like Evolve, which isn't really a good thing. They also run the middle of the road in that there's no defined "Jade Shaman" or "Evolve Shaman" (and there's certainly not "Freeze Shaman", since most of those cards suck.) There's just "Shaman" and it has Jade cards and Evolve tricks and cards that benefit from the hero power. It's just kinda there.

Part of the problem, of course, is that they tied part of the class' identity to the worst mechanic in Hearthstone: Overload. It took Tunnel Trogg and cards like a 4 mana 7/7 (which strangely, never, ever sees play anymore) to make Overload "work". Once the main culprit (Trogg) cycled out, Overload is no longer part of Shaman's identity because Overload sucks. You can see the evidence by the absence of it (yes, I know that's usually a logical fallacy.) Flamewreathed Faceless? Feral Spirit? Stormforged Axe? Stormcrack? Lightning Bolt? No, no, no, no, and no. Lightning Bolt is one of the best removal spells in the game for immediate mana cost and ability to target any minion or the opponent. But it slows you down and means you can't tempo out next turn, so it doesn't get played. The only cards that do get played are the two Js: Jade Claws and Jinyu Waterspeaker, because the former is an efficient weapon that also produces a minion and synergizes with other Jade cards and the latter is a well-statted minion for 4 mana (9 total; see: Chillwind Yeti) and a ridiculously good heal that makes up for the constraint on your mana next turn. In other words, a great control card.

They tried to revive the Overload "identity" with cards like Drakkari Defender, which is preternaturally awful for its cost, being two less mana than a 7/8 Earth Elemental and the same Overload(!) Incidentally, Earth Elemental didn't get played in most Shaman Elemental decks because the Overload inhibited the ability to keep up the Elemental rhythm and you'd risk skipping a turn that you needed to enable something else on the following turn. Then they decided to expand the class' identity by adding Freeze to its portfolio (in the same way they've reinforced Taunt for Druid and Silence for Priests.) But instead of giving it a giant whose cost descends based on number of minions frozen, they base it on Overload, which means that it will never, ever get played. It still wouldn't have been played if it was based on Freeze effects, since Shaman lacks a way to exploit that because all of its Freeze cards are poor, but it will never see play now because you don't want to hamstring yourself throughout the game when you could do the same thing by simply not playing cards (aka Mountain Giant) and maybe getting a lucky early drop. The surest sign of their misunderstanding of this whole concept is Finders Keepers, which is a Discover effect that costs Overload and can't reasonably be played on turn 1, since you won't even be able to use your hero power on turn 2 (see: Lightning Bolt), which removes your synergy with other cards like Thing From Below.

So, yeah, Shaman lacks an identity because its mechanics are either tied to simple minions that often don't do anything particularly interesting (Mana Tide, Flametongue) or are directly contrary to the way in which the game is played, which is in tempo. Seriously, I couldn't believe it when I saw Drakkari Defender. I know they think that most of the Naxx cards were OP, but I'd take Deathlord every day over this piece of shit, regardless of the drawback that sometimes doesn't pull anything bigger than an Argent Squire. That has nothing to do with Deathlord being OP and everything to do with Defender being worthless. In what universe did they think that having 1 mana to spend on turn 4 was something that anyone would want to do for a 2/8 taunt minion? Even with Earth Elemental, you'll have 3 mana on turn 6 (i.e. you can use your hero power!) and a threat on the board that the enemy simply must respond to. What am I missing?

On the original topic: I think Trump is a great player, but a shitty deckbuilder. No one gets to 12 wins in Arena and legendary in constructed as often as he does if they're not a really, really good player. I've seen him make plays in his Arena runs that I simply wouldn't have imagined or I've been frowning when he holds out for another draw when he has the solution in hand and then realize that his patience was the correct approach. I think he blinds himself to certain things because he has a bit too much of the Johnny in him. He can win mechanically or he can win by hewing to the principles that he thinks dominate the game (aka "Valuetown.") That's why he values the Coin so much. He just put up a video where he was trying a Hadronox Taunt deck and in one game he burned two cards and sat in a game for two or three turns longer than he needed to because he still had the Coin in his hand on turn 16 or whatever it was. But there was never a time to get "value" from the Coin, so he held onto it, rather than doing the smart thing and just using it to put down a couple minions at once, even if one wasn't really needed. One of the cards he burned was, of course, Hadronox. His deck designs spend too much time trying to maximize his gameplay principles and not enough time focusing on how to win in the most expedient manner possible. He can win, and does so repeatedly, but tries to win with "value" or ultra-efficient play, even when gambling is sometimes the better route. This is why he was dogged with the "Trump trades" meme that he grumbled about coming back from a big tournament last spring, since other pros were using the phrase to describe using minions to clear when the situation demonstrably called for them to go face, because the enemy minions weren't a threat and it was actually safer to close the game out ASAP. rather than guard against some topdeck that might totally change the game.

Finders Keepers is one of the worst cards they have ever made. That card makes me mad. There is no way to make a deck where that works. And I think it's an Epic, so it cam pollute pack opening and Arena. Awful AWFUL card. The 2/8 Taunt is bad. Very very bad. But I am not angry at them for making it. I like that they see what a 3-mana 2/8 Taunt can do and want to explore that space. I like that cards like this pop out of (D)Evolve effects and mess/spice things up. And I agree with your assessment of Shaman and Freeze. Like, what the fuck. Did anyone want that?

As we noted a few times here over the last few weeks, Silence effects are a big deal now, and Hex was always the best one. It has Silence, AND it nerfs the minion stats AND it fucks up N'Zoth and rez effects. It is really good. And I can't make a Shaman deck without running them. So it makes sense that they are after it on that metric alone, akin to War Axe. You'd be dumb to not play Fiery War Axe. You'd be making a mistake to not play Hex these days.

//Edit
Cool play. I was Maly Rogue, they were an especially greedy Big Priest. I started sloooow, but that's fine, because they are Big Priest. I think they spent a Pint-Sized + SW: Horror on Curator and a Swashburgler. Anyway, I'd built up 3x Razorpetals, Eviscerate, Prep, and a Sinister Strike over a few turns, and The Curator had fetched Maly to hand. I picked up shadowstep toxin from Xaril. Turn 10, Maly, attack with Xaril (to put them at 26), Shadowstep Maly. Emote: Well played. They attacked back with their YShaarj, killed Xaril with Barnes, healed Barnes(!), and Yshaarj did his job and got Obsidian Statue. My turn, play Maly for 7 mana, Sinister Strike for 8 dmg, Razorpetal x2 for 12 dmg, Prep --> Eviscerate for 9 more. Good times.

Cool story bro. Loves me some Maly Rogue.

But ya. The tavern brawl this last week only proved how busted it was as having that card in hand and going first was auto win for Druid. I got 85 wins farming gold with turn 1 otk. Dumb, but effective use of my grind time. It's a super strong card because it not only heals for 10 (5 armor plus 5 health ghoul body), draws, and does direct damage. It also free up card space for other things like Spreading Plague. You don't need to put weak 6 mana draw engine Auctioneer in your deck, or run Earthen Scales as combo to draw/armor with it. You also don't need to think much on turn 5 Nourish wheth r you want to draw or ramp... it's all ramp all the time. Spreading Plague is one of the best anti aggro cards ever conceived in the history of not only HS, but history of cards period. And if you mulligan to help yourself with Jade Druid they innervate out a flappy bird and are aggro Druid playing the most broken opening in the history of openings. Fucking Druid. Edit to add... the best nerf I heard for U I is overdraw 5 keyword. You don't draw 5. You fill your hand and keep drawing until you burn 5 cards. That would be interesting.
I am laddering with great success with Shadow Reaper Anduin burn priest. It's RDU build. Premise being draw, remove, survive, find Anduin. Lots of cheap value cards to keep the engine going. This version does not have Velen. RDU says he is nice as finisherafter you Anduin, but dead card in your hand before that. You don't need it. I don't have Velen and so far havenot needed it.
### Kazakapriest
# Class: Priest
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Mammoth
#
# 1x (0) Silence
# 1x (1) Crystalline Oracle
# 1x (1) Holy Smite
# 1x (1) Northshire Cleric
# 1x (1) Pint-Size Potion
# 1x (1) Potion of Madness
# 1x (1) Power Word: Shield
# 1x (2) Bloodmage Thalnos
# 1x (2) Doomsayer
# 1x (2) Loot Hoarder
# 1x (2) Novice Engineer
# 1x (2) Radiant Elemental
# 1x (2) Shadow Visions
# 1x (2) Shadow Word: Pain
# 1x (2) Spirit Lash
# 1x (3) Acolyte of Pain
# 1x (3) Curious Glimmerroot
# 1x (3) Kabal Courier
# 1x (3) Shadow Word: Death
# 1x (3) Stonehill Defender
# 1x (3) Tar Creeper
# 1x (4) Kazakus
# 1x (4) Priest of the Feast
# 1x (4) Shadow Word: Horror
# 1x (5) Holy Nova
# 1x (5) Lyra the Sunshard
# 1x (5) Raza the Chained
# 1x (6) Cabal Shadow Priest
# 1x (6) Dragonfire Potion
# 1x (8) Shadowreaper Anduin
#
AAECAa0GHooB+wGQApcCnALlBO0FyQalCdMK1wryDPsMoawCkrQCg7sCtbsC2LsCsLwC6L8C6r8C0cEC1cEC2MEC2cECm8ICysMCvsgC8M8CkNMCAAA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

Just played against an OTK variant that I'd never seen before. I was playing druid, and when the Quest came out first turn I was expecting Malygos and Alex so I started armouring up. And up, and up. At peak, I think I had 30 armour and 30 health.

But that wasn't the trick here. The trick was to stay alive using freezes and secrets until almost the whole deck was drawn. Then: 2 x Sorcerer's Apprentice, Time Warp. Then 2 x Molten Reflection, Archmage Antonidas and endless free Fireballs.

Frankly, it made me want to give up playing forever.

Yeah, that's the current version of Exodia Mage, called "Exodia" after a five-card combination in Yu-gi-oh that instantly won you the game if you held it in your hand. The version you lost to relies on Molten Reflection to go off while the pre-rotation version used a Thaurissan tick on all the combo pieces. The only option is to try to rush them down but yes, it can be supremely frustrating to play against, especially if they bullshit their way into a third Ice Block from Babbling Book/Primordial Glyph. I saw a clip of Firebat playing against an Exodia Mage where he used a combination of Dead Man's Hand, Whirlwind and Armorsmiths to get 100+ armor, and it still wasn't enough.

MattDP wrote: Just played against an OTK variant that I'd never seen before. I was playing druid, and when the Quest came out first turn I was expecting Malygos and Alex so I started armouring up. And up, and up. At peak, I think I had 30 armour and 30 health.

But that wasn't the trick here. The trick was to stay alive using freezes and secrets until almost the whole deck was drawn. Then: 2 x Sorcerer's Apprentice, Time Warp. Then 2 x Molten Reflection, Archmage Antonidas and endless free Fireballs.

Frankly, it made me want to give up playing forever.

Just a second ago I watched Zetalot set off Ice Block #1 on Turn 8, then #2 on turn 9, then #3 on Turn 10, and lose on Turn 11. Mind you, doing this through Frost Nova, Blizzard, while testing for other Secrets as Priest. I can't WAIT for Blizzard to get rid of Ice Block. Good lord I hate that card. I don't mind losing to ridiculous 5+ card combos, but I hate winning the game three times only to lose.

Jade Druid has totally screwed the meta over right now. Everyone is expecting to play against Jade Druid, so almost everything I'm encountering is build to survive long, drawn out games and/or finish with a OTK.

Big Priest and Highlander Priest are the most popular. That ultra-defensive mid-range Paladin deck is next. Skulking Geist is everywhere.

It doesn't much matter whether you play Jade Druid or not. The sorts of games this environment are fostering are simply not fun: they're endurance tests. I'm hoping the Druid nerf comes soon although, to be honest, I think Jade is the archetype it's going to hit the least. It doesn't need Innvervate, so can just replace those cards with Feral Rage and/or Earthen Scales and it's pretty much as good as it is right now.

So this may just be the way it is for now.

Hey man, I was trying yesterday, playing with Pirate Warrior. I had a good run, and then I played against Turn 2 Spirit Lash + Five Taunts.dec and the next game saw The Perfect Kazakus Spell (4 dmg + 7 Armor). I was doing my best to play 6-turn games, but these Priests won't let me.

MattDP wrote: Just played against an OTK variant that I'd never seen before. I was playing druid, and when the Quest came out first turn I was expecting Malygos and Alex so I started armouring up. And up, and up. At peak, I think I had 30 armour and 30 health.

But that wasn't the trick here. The trick was to stay alive using freezes and secrets until almost the whole deck was drawn. Then: 2 x Sorcerer's Apprentice, Time Warp. Then 2 x Molten Reflection, Archmage Antonidas and endless free Fireballs.

Frankly, it made me want to give up playing forever.

I ran into that deck once or twice, just before I quit playing forever.

It wasn't just that particular deck, but that's a shining example of why I wasn't finding it fun anymore.

SebastianBludd wrote: Yeah, that's the current version of Exodia Mage, called "Exodia" after a five-card combination in Yu-gi-oh that instantly won you the game if you held it in your hand. The version you lost to relies on Molten Reflection to go off while the pre-rotation version used a Thaurissan tick on all the combo pieces. The only option is to try to rush them down but yes, it can be supremely frustrating to play against, especially if they bullshit their way into a third Ice Block from Babbling Book/Primordial Glyph. I saw a clip of Firebat playing against an Exodia Mage where he used a combination of Dead Man's Hand, Whirlwind and Armorsmiths to get 100+ armor, and it still wasn't enough.

I've read (but not tested) that 150 damage, give or take, is how much you can burn in one turn with the Archmage Antonidas combo before the rope burns out. That deck is particularly lothesome as it's next to impossible to beat if you're also running control. I basically concede as Big Priest when I don't have at least Barnes or Shadow Essence by turn six, and even then, it's usually hopeless.

It's pretty incredible because it used to be Freeze Mage would lose vs Control Warrior 99% of the time and it would lose to many other control decks, but that combo has completely flipped the tables. I've seen the same deck use 2 arcane giants and 2 molten giants, where in you get the cost of both down to 0 or 1 (with your health at 5 or 6) drop all four, then play the time warp and attack for 32. It's one fewer moving part but far less likely to be a OTK.

Meanwhile...

I'm happy to see the Spreading Plague nerf, that was entirely necessary and that card is still incredibly powerful.

The rest of the nerfs are somewhere between disappointing and incomprehensible.

Weakening basic cards to fit the current meta is very, very bad, for two reasons. First, it has a huge impact on the game in both standard and wild, which further leads credence to the criticism that they don't actually care about Wild, which sucks. It also means that the power creep is going to be that much more drastic in the future to make up for the loss of utility.

Second, and I'd argue more importantly, it makes the game that much more difficult for new players. I know, I know, this is a business, they want new players to have to pay to compete, but they already have that! The game still needs to give F2Pers something to be excited about and strategies to exploit so that they can be turned into P2Wers.

Turning Innerverate into Counterfeit Coin seriously limits the design space of ramp going forward, considering that ramp is *THE* thing that Druid does (most other druid archetypes take advantage of ramp in some form or another) it seems at odds with their whole "these classes have these philosophies and themes" justification for other design decisions.

War Axe was the most powerful basic card in the entire game, (with Flametongue Totem the only real other contender, so get ready for that to get nerfed next year) now it's strictly worse than Eaglehorn Bow. "But people still play eaglehorn bow" you say. Yes, but weapons are far less an identity for Hunters than they are for Warriors. "Well it goes in every warrior deck, control and aggro" yeah but that's the entire point of basic cards! When they made Execute a 2 mana card it wasn't that big a deal because Execute is most useful later in the game to take out bigger targets, now they've nerfed both the late(r) game and early game removals that Warrior relies on.

Hex... I actually don't have a huge problem with this. No other class can hard remove and silence nearly any card in the game for 3 mana, and Shaman isn't exactly a hard removal class. Even Polymoph costs 4 and you can argue that a 0/1 taunt is a better outcome than a 1/1 no taunt, but given their "make classes have specific identites" doesn't it make more sense for it to cost 3, and have overload 2? Overload 1 wouldn't really be enough of a nerf given the amount of overload synergy, but I think Overload 2 hits the right balance.

Murloc Warleader going from +2/+1 to +2 attack is probably fine, that's not a huge nerf, but until Pally gets non-viable Murloc options it feels like a pretty unfair blow to the class. Murloc Paladin feels like a deck that that's properly powered. Usually favored but not more than 55/45 in most matchups.

Ice Block going to the HOF next year (which, let's be clear now, this is happening) is fine. That's a card that feels much more like a wild card than a standard card and I'm looking forward to the 1600 free dust for my golden version.

I am also a little perturbed about the Fiery War Axe nerf. A 3-mana 3/2 is not that great. I actually play Eaglehorn Bow as a 3-mana 3/2 (ie without Secrets in the deck), but that's because Hunter is so shitty at clearing minions. It's got shitty class minions and has the identity of only being able to "Hunt Heroes" I guess. But Warrior has clears galore, and decent dudes at every cost. I feel like Upgrade made it too good? That's an oddball.

I am playing a goofy deck that is a blast. Elemental Quest Hunter. One problem with Quest Hunter was that your deck was full of shitty 1-drops to get the Quest. But I figured if I can make the game last, I don't need as many shitty 1-drops--I will see them eventually. And I also wanted to minimize my deck slots spent on shitty 1-drops, so I hit upon Elementals: Fire Fly, Igneous Elemental, and Mistress of Mixtures are the only things that make 1-drops in this deck. By packing the tutoring effect of Stitched Tracker, I can pick one out if I felt the urge. Or fetch them with Tolvir Warden. Or synergize one from Servant of Kalimos.

Stitched Tracker made me think about tutoring in general--picking cards out of your deck. That's really powerful. So I packed in some hate-y stuff. Bonemare, sure. Defender of Argus, cool. Skulking Geist. Blazecaller, Nerubian Unraveler, Eater of Secrets. All at 1-of. I don't really want them, but sometimes I really want them. I can fetch Lich King and Primordial Drake too, but can't play those and the Tracker on the same turn. Anyway, it's fun and interesting. Here's a build, but you can try out Cult Apothecary, Baron Geddon, Ozruk, whatever.

www.hearthpwn.com/decks/930197-elemental-quest-hunter

AAECAR8O+wWIrwKbwgLOwgKKwwKYwwLCwwLIxwLJxwKgzgKmzgKnzgLCzgKG0wIIigGHBMUImcIC68IC3sQCxscC080CAA==

jeb wrote: I am also a little perturbed about the Fiery War Axe nerf. A 3-mana 3/2 is not that great.

Me too. I'm on board with all the other nerfs. Reducing innervate doesn't stop the ramp: you've still got Wild Growth, Marsh Keeper and Jade Blossom for that. It does stop first-turn Vicious Fledgling which is the most outrageous opening play around and the closest thing Hearthstone has to a turn-1 win. And like you said, scaling back Hex, Murloc Warleader and Spreading Plague is fine: I can see all those cards still getting play in their new form, which is the acid test for a sensible nerf.

But Firey War axe? Nope. It's powerful but it's not OP and certainly not game breaking. It's not even going to slow down the most powerful warrior deck with all the pirates because, hey, it's not like Warriors don't have a bunch of other weapons to choose from.

Generally, I'm not a fan of nerfing any classic/basic class cards that define the identity of the class. When you make overpowered expansion cards that interact with the basic cards, the solution is not to change the basic cards. The solution is better design in the expansion..

Space Ghost wrote: Generally, I'm not a fan of nerfing any classic/basic class cards that define the identity of the class. When you make overpowered expansion cards that interact with the basic cards, the solution is not to change the basic cards. The solution is better design in the expansion..

Right, the Innervate/Vicious Fledgling problem is not an Innervate problem! Innervate and any 3 drop neutral has always been a potential issue, but only with VF does it feel totally broken. Even with VF the problem isn't even VF itself, so much as it is that Windfury is one of the possible buffs with Adapt, and the way windfury works is that it allows a second attack even if the minion didn't have WF to begin the turn. They could change the way Adapt OR Windfury works and it would stop the innervate > VF problem.

The fact that the Druid toolbox is incredible right now make this an even bigger problem, but the solution to this is not to nerf the basic card! I don't get why this is so hard for Blizzard to understand. Unless they want to come out and say "Innervate is going to provide one mana until the next set rotation, then we'll bump it back to two and reevaluate." This would be the exact right way to take advantage of the digital format, but of course they refuse to do it because having more than 9 deck slots might confuse players.

And it's not that it stops the ramp, but it does significantly weaken the ramp. I'm trying to think of another nerf they could make that would be the equivalent of this and coming up empty. Maybe if they made Shadowstep or Backstab cost 1.