Hearthstone Players!

Yeah, I've been playing it, off and on, for a while. Feel free to cue up my various complaints about RNG and give me the "WTF?", but this has always struck me as the kind of RNG I enjoy because I'm the one who gets to initiate it (I think I babbled about that concept in this thread a few pages ago.) I've played a lot of Control Shaman before, but this is one where I don't really mind not having the right cards in hand because I can make the right cards even if I don't draw them and I can tell that my opponents are so desperate to clear my board that it's almost like playing an aggro deck... except controlly. I've played Evolve (and Devolve) before but the DK just adds something more to it that isn't reliant on drawing those two cards, but instead keeps presenting possibilities. It's like Arena, but with more control over how your deck functions (I no longer play Arena.) The two games prior to that one were losses to a Handlock where I made a bad misplay and against a vanilla Beast Hunter deck that got the perfect tempo draw. I wasn't even mad, which leads me to believe that this deck has kind of taught me how to roll with the vagaries of the game after 4.5 years of playing it.

I've thought about fitting in Rattling Rascal somewhere, but I don't like the absolute reliance on Evolve effects to evade his drawback. Even the Gangster still gets only me 3 2/2s without Evolve, without having to worry about handing resources to my opponent. And I also don't own any Rascals, so...

OMG FINALLY!



I really need to do the tryhard thing earlier in the month, and not do it with new decks, because it kind of sucked. I started off with Pirate Warrior and, even though Jackwraith showed up to heckle me the last few nights, it got me to Rank 7 pretty easily. But it's fragile and if you draw your 4-5 drops in your opening hand, you're basically boned. And then you need to hope that you drew your weapon synergy minions in the right order and that you didn't draw too many weapons, etc. It's good for fast games, but it runs out of steam quickly and I fully admit that I never fully figured out my board:Smorc ratio.

So yesterday I switched to Token (Aggro) Druid and, while the deck is far more robust, the iteration I was running suffered from two problems: it was running 1x Bonemare, and I didn't have a second Living Mana. I struggled with it all last night, switched decks, nothing worked, and I finally switched to an iteration that dropped Bonemare and I crafted the second LM. I started at Rank 8/4 today - down from 7/3 three days ago - and those changes made a world of difference. The deck is much more consistent now and I finally feel like I can plan my turns leading up to Hydra/LM.

Quest Mages and Big Priests aren't really a problem and there aren't many around. Control Warlock can be a tough matchup but I think I saw one or two total in the last few days, and one of those might have been Handlock.

Most of my opponents have been Evolve/Token Shaman, Pirate Warrior, the two flavors of Druid (Aggro and Jade), and Paladin (mostly midrange with a smattering of Exodia). The Aggro Druid mirror match isn't too bad, but it's basically a coin flip and can often come down to who can play their Hydra/Living Mana first. I have a pretty good record in the mirror. If you can get your 2 and 3 mana taunts down then Pirate Warrior isn't too bad, and I can usually outrace Jade Druid but not always because that deck is really good.

But the deck that really gets on my nerves is Midrange Paladin. It's my worst matchup and I don't think I've won against it yet. Flood the board? First turn coin + Doomsayer, or Turn 4 Consecration to wreck your tokens, or they play that damn 1/1 for 1 that has divine shield and taunt (seriously, that card is straight up broken. It should either cost 2, or be a 0/1.). Then you have to make sure and keep their board clear because they can play Blessing of Kings at 4 mana, Spikeridged Steed at 6, and fucking Bonemare at 7. Bonemare is a great card for newbies, but I think I hate facing it even more than that 3/6 with taunt that Jade Druids run.

But all of that pales in comparison to the synergistic murloc horseshit you have to hope they don't draw. I dabbled with a non-optimized version of this deck last night (I don't have Finja or Wickerflame) and I never really drew the nuts, but boy oh boy do they ever seem to usually draw them against me. By the time they play Warleader into Megasaur - to buff a board you couldn't clear due to the aforementioned 1/1 with taunt and divine shield - that's pretty much game over. I'll let you guys know if I ever beat that damn deck with Aggro Druid.

Now, now. I don't heckle. I provide editorial commentary on shitty aggro decks, like Pirate Warrior. Your Druid, OTOH, is far more interesting (i.e. requires thought.)

Per the request, here's the current incarnation of the Zoo Priest:
Argent Squire x 2
Holy Smite
Inner Fire x 2
Northshire Cleric x 2
Power Word: Shield x 2
Young Priestess
Divine Spirit x 2
Mana Geode x 2
Radiant Elemental x 2
Shadow Ascendant x 2
Happy Ghoul x 2
Kabal Talonpriest x 2
Spellbreaker x 2
Tortollan Shellraiser x 2
Holy Nova x 2
Lyra the Sunshard
Shadowreaper Anduin

Most of it should be obvious. I tossed in the Young Priestess because she's annoying for classes that can't deal 1 damage and occasionally you get the turn 2 combo (Priestess/Ascendant) and end up with a 3/2 and 2/3 on the board for 2 + coin that will continue to buff each other and anything else you drop. But she's still kind of a weak link and I should probably look for another early minion. The fact is, she kind of embodies the Priest approach to Zoo: instead of good offensive trades like Warlock does, you go for good defensive trades and wear out aggro but are able to keep pressure on against control. I haven't put it in Ranked yet, because I'm still just tooling around with it, but I haven't lost a single game in Casual, including the latest one 10 minutes ago against a (ugh) Mill Rogue aka exactly the kind of deck that Zoo shouldn't be able to beat. We both ran out of cards and he Vanished me twice, but he just couldn't make me go away, which is kind of the point. Anyway, give it a shot. It's dirt cheap, other than Lyra (another possible weak link) and Anduin.

SebastianBludd wrote: OMG FINALLY!

Congratulations!

The ladder system annoys me, because it feels like it's more about endurance than skill. I wish they'd do something to make your long term play more meaningful. Even just removing less stars at the end of a season would be a bonus.

Jackwraith wrote: I've thought about fitting in Rattling Rascal somewhere, but I don't like the absolute reliance on Evolve effects to evade his drawback. Even the Gangster still gets only me 3 2/2s without Evolve, without having to worry about handing resources to my opponent. And I also don't own any Rascals, so...

Maybe Big Time Racketeer could be tried out. That's 2 6-drops for 6, right? Something to consider. I will try it out, sounds fun.

Yeah, that's a fair point. The thing that bugs me about Racketeer is that it's a high-cost minion that doesn't really have value without the Evolve process, which my same argument against the Rascal.

Evolve x 2
Fire Fly x 2
Flametongue Totem x 2
Jade Claws x 2
Maelstrom Portal x 2
Hex x 2
Lightning Storm x 2
Mana Tide Totem x 2
Spirit Echo
Stonehill Defender x 2
Jade Lightning x 2
Master of Evolution x 2
Doppelgangster x 2
Thrall, Deathseer
Volcano
Aya Blackpaw
Thing from Below x 2

The rest of the things I'm evolving tend to have greater value than just their presence on the board (3 2/2s for 5, free 5/5 taunt, another source of evolve, etc.) or they're the incidental product of something else (all the Jade stuff.) Or at least that's the way I'm viewing it. My version is more controlly than a lot of them that seek to just run you down with minions. As with most of my control decks, I like to put a deathgrip on you or make it so that my ridiculous card advantage wins the game for me, which is why Spirit Echo is in there. I'm still surprised that Master of Evolution doesn't see wider use. He's a 4/5 for 4 (i.e. Yeti stats, the hallmark of value in minions) with an insanely positive effect in most cases.

Jackwraith wrote: Now, now. I don't heckle. I provide editorial commentary on shitty aggro decks, like Pirate Warrior. Your Druid, OTOH, is far more interesting (i.e. requires thought.)

A lot of Aggro Druid turns are tempo-based and it suits my playstyle a lot more than Pirate Warrior, and it's a much more interesting deck to play, as you mentioned. If anyone's interested in trying it out, Aggro Druid is pretty cheap, and you can run a fairly successful budget version if you you're missing Patches or a couple copies of the epics. Just don't run the version on Tempostorm that has Bonemare. Bonemare is a win-more card in this deck and it's almost an auto-lose condition to have it in your opening hand. I never played it once in all my struggles playing that version yesterday. Anyway, as annoying as Pirate Warrior is to play against, it's less predictable than playing against Jade Druid.

For instance, if you're playing as an Aggro Druid against a Jade Druid you're safe using the Coin/Innervate to run out a couple weenies because the first minion they usually summon is a Jade Golem from Jade Blossom. Hero power takes care of that and after that it's best to try and buff no more than three minions because of Spreading Plague. If you have firm board control - make trades to play around Swipe and Wrath the best you can - use Crazed Alchemist or Savage Roar to punch through the 3/6 Jade Behemoth on Turn 6 and keep the pressure on. You know you're in good shape if they play Nourish on Turn 7/8 to dig for answers, and by then you should be ready to play a Hydra or Living Mana (Hydra is preferable) to close things out. I usually lose if they play Aya, Primordial Drake or The Black Knight. Otherwise they're too busy trying to come back for such slow plays. It's fun to manipulate Jade Druid players into burning their Wraths and Swipes early and after they're behind and forced to trade they usually can't come back.

As for as the ladder experience goes, I don't know if I would have the understanding of the decks I faced, including Jade Druid, if I wasn't forced to grind under the pressure of losing progress. It made me a better player (against the 3-4 most common decks I faced, that is), but I also agree that the grind is too arduous while not having any idea how to improve it.

SebastianBludd wrote: As for as the ladder experience goes, I don't know if I would have the understanding of the decks I faced, including Jade Druid, if I wasn't forced to grind under the pressure of losing progress. It made me a better player (against the 3-4 most common decks I faced, that is), but I also agree that the grind is too arduous while not having any idea how to improve it.

Sure you need skill (and experience) to do well on the ladder. But right now you need skill and endurance and time and only one of those should really matter. I also don't like the reliance on win streaks for bonus stars as getting back to back wins is as much luck as skill. I could play nine games and win six and get anywhere between three and nine stars for my efforts, depending entirely on how the wins were spaced.

In terms of fixes, I just think you need to take less stars off people. Drop a quarter of your earned stars at turnover, instead of half. If you're on a win streak have your first loss end the streak but not lose a star. That sort of thing: not rocket science. But it's in Blizzard's interest to keep the selection barrier for the top ranks extremely high, because it funnels into a more stable e-sports space.

Tavern Brawl uses Standard-legal cards for deckbuilding. The theme is Blood Magic--spells cost health points instead of mana. Druid's Moonglade Portal is a solid play turn 1. I would also recommend Violet Illusionist for some early tricks. I built a Malygos Druid deck that can win pretty quick. I have, of course, lost to Turn 1 Ultimate Infestation, Stonetusk Boar, Feral Rage x2, Mark of the Wild, Mark of Nature, Bite, Nourish and whatever she drew from that because I Conceded.

BTW, Lorewalker Cho is some value in an OTK deck.

I'm about to take my Priest Zoo deck into Ranked, because I do nothing but win in Casual, which is all ladder decks, anyway.

hsreplay.net/replay/oqXcFgUyAy6fnJfwjVrdei

That was the latest game against someone playing the Handlock version of control Warlock (Why do you have to say "Handlock version? Because J4ckie's deck is control Warlock. It just doesn't use giants and dragons.) I still have the Priestess in for whatever reason. With that opening hand, I figured I'd just test to see if he had the Coil. If not, Geode starts getting ridiculous value. But, of course, he did in the same way that Warriors always have Axe when you play a 2/3. He at least recognized the problems that Geode could cause with the second turn Doomsayer, but this is why I like J4ckie's deck over Handlock: I don't give a shit about small minions because I can either contest them, body to body, or rely on my board clears. This guy really should have done the same, but he drops a DS against a 2/3 instead of tapping. Probably not an experienced Warlock player.

He Coins the dragon (again, why not make a 4/7 at the price of 4 points of health (2 for Geode, 2 for tapping plus a card)?) and I respond with a 2/10 Radiant. He can't Siphon for two more turns and will have to clear his own board and take a lot of damage to get rid of it. So he drops Doomsayer #2 and then drops a Voidwalker into it, making me suspect that he already has Gul'dan in hand. I got nothin', so I heal and let the board clear, content that our card exchange has been pretty even. He taps and then drops ERF. Again, this might be the difference between an experienced Warlock and non-, but I'd be much more likely to save that ERF for one of my creatures if I'm still at 26, 5 turns in, ESPECIALLY if' I"m playing Priest and he didn't SWP my two Doomsayers. Of course, since I'm obviously not playing a typical Priest deck (Mana Geode? WTF?), maybe he just wasn't sure what was coming next. So I drop my collaborative Talonpriests and he Siphons the 3/7. For one point. He'd already shown a willingness to throw away his Voidwalkers, so he can't have been concerned about my knocking his guys out. Maybe he thought I was going to go on a drawing binge with a Cleric? But he has Hellfire and Abyssal, which means a Cleric would never survive.

Left without better options, I decide to get two spells off of Lyra. I decided to PWS the Talonpriest to keep it in play, assuming that even a 7 health Lyra would get cleared, regardless. But that's debatable. She sticks around longer than I expected and Holy Fire was useful in order to make him not just beat me up with the Abyssal. Defile does its thing and suddenly I have rather severe card advantage, but with cards that aren't especially useful, except for the fortuitous SWD, since I know giants are coming at some point. But when he gets to 9 mana with Lich King in hand, he decides to tap, rather than play out the taunt into an SWD (and make it easier to cast Mountain Giant.) Not sure about that. He was already going to replace the card of Lich King and, thus, be in the same position vis-a-vis the Giant. Pulling the SWD from my hand on Lich King would have been just as effective.

Then he decides to hold off again and clear my board with Abyssal. Why? Play out a threat I can't deal with that does 2 more points of damage then follow with Abyssal if you really need to clear. I think he was way too focused on maximum value for Bloodreaver, but by then I knew he hadn't had it in hand, but could have drawn into it. I spend a turn or two kind of cooling my heels, having nothing to respond with except a Cleric who would be instantly cleared by any number of methods. I did use the SWD on the Abyssal, but that was because he had spent 3 turns playing out Not Giant, which meant he hadn't drawn into them, if he was playing wisely, IMO. Finally, the Mountain Giant comes down and I'm concerned... until I draw into Anduin. He's still in the deck, too, and it's usually for last pushes just like this.

The Lich King finally arrives, but I have multiple low mana cards in hand and an opponent below 10 health who's already used what are 3 of the 6 likely healing cards in his deck and two of those only heal for two if I have minions in play. He does get the Siphon off on the Cleric, buying him one more turn. A timely Spellbreaker saves me from the threat of a Death Coil or something that would extend the game even further. And then it's all over but the shouting. I still don't feel like this deck is rock solid and could be used to climb in any significant fashion, mostly because it would die horribly to the various Druid contortions and, in fact, plays right into the worst card of the set, which is Spreading Plague.

Tangent: So, you're a game designer wanting to slow down the speed of play. You decide that each class is going to get a card or two that helps with that. One class in particular, although noted as one that doesn't have great removal options, still has one that's widely regarded as one of the best cards in the game (Swipe) and another that's still one of the class' versatile Choose One options (Starfall.) But you decide that's not enough and the answer to aggro and the continued failure of Beast Druid is to combine the two and punish aggro players for playing their deck. It's not bad enough that Druid was already a midrange/aggro class with Token Druid, which has been around forever because of another constant Druid card, Savage Roar. Their method for dealing with the speed problem on Druid's end is to make it so aggro doesn't want to play more creatures. Not so Druid can catch up, but so that an entire type of deck is punished for playing properly. This is the same shitty design that has kept Divine Favor in the game, where control players are actively punished for playing their deck properly even if their opponent played their aggro deck like an idiot (i.e. vomiting their hand on to the board with no options to rebuild their position when removal gets rid of it.) If you play a minion-based deck (aka aggro), you don't want to play minions against Druid. That's just fucking awful. People are bitching about Infestation and, although it's also terrible (Why wasn't it a Choose One of two of the four effects? Even the 10 mana Kazakus potions are only two effects.), the card that enables them to play Infestation is Spreading Plague. Unfuckingbelievable.

You missed lethal on your penultimate turn in that replay. Hero Power, Holy Nova, Hero Power deals 6 for 9. C'est la guerre.

I am saving up for DKs. They really enable all kinds of cool decks and that's my bag, man. I am just not a Paladin player. I think it's my lowest leveled class. I'm sitting here with this cool 5/3 lifesteal sword wishing I just killed all the fatties and could start vampiring folks and evolving my dudes.

Druid's ability to extend the game is pretty obnoxious at this point. They have more effective armor gain than Warriors now I think. 2x Feral Rage, 2x Ultimate Infestation, 2x Armored Scales is about 40 armor they can access efficiently.

It's that fourth Ysera Awakens that gets 'em. hsreplay.net/replay/7dSHTmjuaLjPGUM5BPCokJ

Ha. Yeah. I play him so rarely, I'm still not used to the rhythm of power, card, power sometimes.

jeb wrote: It's that fourth Ysera Awakens that gets 'em. hsreplay.net/replay/7dSHTmjuaLjPGUM5BPCokJ

Ha. That's awesome. Did you burn anything that made you wince?

I was overdrawing because my hand was getting stuffed with Ysera (and eventually) The Lich King spells. I did not have a problem burning my deck for these. I would have been sad to see Obsidian Statue go (only have 1), but that was already in hand when the shenanigans started. Lots of good Secret testing in this game for folks looking to learn about that. I was "wasting" Potion of Madness and SW:Pain to make sure my 6-mana stuff would fire and not get Counterspelled/Mana Bound.

On kind of a side topic: If you've been watching Trump's videos, you've seen him try out different versions of control Warlock. He preferred the Handlock version, but then decided it was too slow, so he took the Mountain Giants out, but kept the Twilight Drakes and the Doomsayers; thus, completely sabotaging his deck's mission, since J4ckie's original deck depends on clearing the way for your minions, not having a card stuck in your hand because you don't want to sacrifice your board (aka Doomsayer.) In place of those 4 cards, the deck has Tainted Zealot and Shadow Bolt. Why do those work so well? Because they clear the board without sacrificing your guys. Trump has been, like my last opponent, so focused on getting maximum value from Bloodreaver Gul'dan that he's not recognizing how the deck is supposed to work or the fact that on the turn he spends all 10 of his mana and his multiple 6/6s show up, the opponent might be able to AoE them away (or freeze them. Or Plague them. Or whatever.), so he's better off being more aggressive on the board and putting his opponent closer to life or death situations than sitting back and playing the long game (or, even worse, having two dead cards in his hand (Doomsayer!) for the entire game. It's a control deck, but it's still a minion deck.

He's also been outspoken about his disdain for Tainted Zealot. I think he's missing the utility of that card based around one card he's missing (Shadow Bolt) which removes the multiplicity of things with 5 health these days, and one card he's not (Defile.) Kibler just demonstrated again how useful Zealot can be in board clears, since she patches over the problem of not having something at 1 health. The Defile will actually inflict 4 damage to the board before she dies, which basically ensures a clear of everything but the most late game Jades. That's how you want to sacrifice your board, if you have to. I think Trump is just behind the curve on Warlock. They basically ensured that Handlock would be a more difficult prospect without the Molten Giants and that's fine. There are other ways to play control.