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Magic and the "dominion" problem

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16 Aug 2013 08:05 #158666 by bomber
OK, I've been quite enjoying tinkering with MtG on the iPad, but with the built in decks, and now the campaign mode, and I think I'm seeing where maybe the deckbuilding part is a bigger part of the game than I realised. Is it fair to say that with pre built decks theres a little bit of the Dominion problem, in that you're kind of auto playing the cards you draw? or is it just that I'm using very basic intro decks as a noob? like, youre both playing mana each turn, hoping to be able to put out better cards as you go on, you attack, you block, you use spells, but a lot of the games I've played recently seem a bit "auto", I mean, you only have a limited hand of cards and a certain mana amount, right?

I ran into a problem in GAME FUCKING TWO of the campaign (I didnt beat Duel 1 first time out either), where the AI is putting some 1/1 demony things out each round (his deck seems to just include those cards plus mana), and after 6 rounds hes bundling them into a 5/6 demon thats kicking my ass. A few times I've not drawn mana in several rounds so I'm close to dead even before the demon shows up because theres FUCK ALL I can actually do. Then sometimes I'm getting stuff out but nothing that isnt ass kicked by the 5/6 guy and(or blocked by his horde of 1/1 shitheads. I've tried 3 or 4 of the decks you can get in the game, I figured the "big" beast decks are too slow, so I've tried some "fast" decks (I assume this means more mana, and more cards with lower mana requirements) but so far to no avail, but the problem is it doesnt feel like in ANY of these games I could have done anything. Frustrating when I can see things that might work, like being sure to get more mana in the deck so I'm always increasing each round, and being able to put out more creatures earlier to block/kill those 1/1 guys and thus avoid 5/6 guy showing up, but I've literally not been able to do it in 4 games now I think, and its kinda frustrating

Am I missing something here?

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16 Aug 2013 09:15 - 16 Aug 2013 09:18 #158670 by dragonstout
You make me want to download it so I can play against you and see how you're playing!

The average Magic player at a Pro Tour, invitation-only tournament, makes one play mistake per turn. For me, watching the actual best-of-the-best pros play is incredible, because of how they pursue lines of play I don't even always see. So most of the time I'm playing, at least, it's *not* auto-pilot. But that is a very common perception by new players, because it is very easy to go on auto-pilot. Also, it's somewhat possible that the decks are so simple that there really are no choices, but I'd *guess* unlikely. Usually when I play against noobs, they can't attack or block correctly for shit. They also leak information about their hands like a sieve. So those would be the two main things I'd think about.

As for the Shadowborn Apostle/Demon deck: I looked at the five starting decklists below, and I think the Demon deck should be beatable by everything except the red deck (which can probably beat it too, but it's not as trivial). It's not like the game's over when the demon arrives. For example, you mention the "big beast deck" you tried; I assume you're talking about the green deck. Early on, be putting pressure on him to maybe chump block using your cheap but beefy dudes, and get some damage in. But basically, wait until he summons his Demon. The turn after he summons the demon, play down two spiders, or a spider + Oakenform. Now his demon can't attack you profitably. Spider + Oakenform, combined with Prey Upon or Hunt the Weak, even kills the demon which essentially gives you a 6-for-1. Or just lay down a Kalonian Hydra the turn after he summons the demon, and your Hydra will kill him faster than he can either kill you with the demon or summon another one.
www.wizards.com/magic/digital/duelsofthe...igital/d14/decklists

I'd be happy to explain how the black, blue, or white decks can go about beating the demon deck too. With all but the red deck, it seems like you should be able to beat the demon deck every time you don't have a completely awful draw.

Edit: eh, I misread some of the numbers on the blue deck. The blue deck will have trouble too.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 09:18 by dragonstout.
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16 Aug 2013 10:26 #158671 by bomber
thanks dude, yeah, I'm sure I am playing like a complete fucking spazz, no doubt, but maybe I've been a bit unlucky too, like 2 of the games hes got me almost dead without me hitting him because Ive not even been able to get anything out there that didnt get smacked around. I might try again with a different deck and jot down what I do just to post here, I'm sure I am probably mnissing stuff, I find the UI a bit .... weird (or maybe my ipad is just dirty?) like sometimes I try to block but nothing happens and then its too late and Im like fuck!, and I'm also still not really up on the flow of play with the different "phases" and when you can or cant use this or that so I am relying on looking at when cards halo but maybe I miss stuff there too

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16 Aug 2013 13:12 #158675 by san il defanso
I did my first sealed event last night, and I thought I would walk away with the same conclusion. I think the more accurate way to put it is that while the deckbuilding might be the deepest part of the game, the cardplay is far less automatic than I had been led to believe. You don't just throw all of your creatures on the board and call it a day. There's a lot of timing that goes into it, especially as to when you cast instants. When you're playing against a deck you've never seen, it's a little nerve-wracking to have a Cancel in your hand, and wondering when you should use it.

I had a ball last night by the way. It's the first night of our monthly league, so I really think it'll be something to get into.

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16 Aug 2013 13:19 #158676 by bomber
The flaming sorceress stands astride the screen, mocking me as she tosses the burning remnants of superflyTNTs balls while simultaneously revealing long, lustrous thighs that she surely plans to tease me with

Away with thee wench, for Lord Dragonstout of the fortress trash has advised me to turn aside from your sorcerous ways, and of the ways of that other bird in the frilly blue. Be gone now, for the shadowfest pete apostlethwaites once again sully forth onto my lands, and must be defeated.



The duel commences, in my hands, 3 swamps, a veilborn ghoul, staff of the death magnus magnusson. tendrils of corruption, oh, and a black cat. I accept this hand and proceed to meet the wretched cuntists of skirsdag, which in swedish means the day between wednesday and thursday. OK I made that last bit up



cuntist plays swamp, and the first shadowborn pete apostlethwaite

I draw doom blade, great, it destroys non black creatures. that should be useful against a black deck demon spawn

I swamp like it was 1995, its only "basic land" though, I dont know where the advanced swamps are

now I missed the action, it seems like postlethwaite attacked me (down to 19) is spinal (tapped) and then another postlethwaite is played, but I thought the summoning came before the attacking, so I must be missing something here, because Postlethwaites alter ego is definitely arriving into the party AFTER the original has swatted me for 1 damage

and now I'm really confused because hes tapped both his swamps and now there are 3 pete postlethwaites in front him and now its my turn. I guess I thought it should go like this swamp/postlethewaite (sick), turn 2: swamp/postlethwaitex2 (both sick), attack with postlethwaite1, but it seems to be happening in the opposite order.



Anyway, I get my second vile swamp down, I guess I will throw the black cat out there, the only one I can play, to block one of his petes, as it will also remove one of his cards at random, thus perhaps slowing down the arrival of the Russell Brand Demon.

I send forth my dark pussy with a wave of my wizardly arms


more swamp and an attack, and here again my first UI bollocks, as trying to drag that fucking pussy fucker onto the postlethwaite nothing happens and in a panic I click the shield button, too late, that button means "dont fucking block". you cunt!

so now I am down to 16 and he has 5 postlers in action with me stuck on 2 mana. OK I see that the missed block is a mistake but its a retarded UI, am I missing a button? I double clicked the cat, no button popped up to block only "more info". I tried to drag the cat over to the petes, but nothing happened. Dumb

anyway, my 3rd swamp goes down and with it the staff of magnus magnusson the famous swedish stick maker. Now swamps will boost my very life essence, muahahahahahah or something

I may as well attack with the cat, since if its blocked, one of his postlethewaites dies, and otherwise he has 6 shortly and the demon arrives and im fucked again. (PS why can my cat not fucking attack one of his postlethwaites directly, or am I doing it wrong? it seems a bit weird that it can only attack mr skirsdag himself)

he doesnt block, cos he knows damn well hes bringing mr fat head in next round

he now plays swamp, so he has 4 mana, he now has 5 postlethewaites all launching an attack. Now I realise another chump mistake I'm making. My furry pussy, tired from scratching at the eyes of mr boss cuntist cannot block these baldy hollywood bit part mother fuckers, so im down to 11 health compared to his 19. and demon is lurking.....

AND HERE HE IS, and whats worse, he doesnt even get the biscuits in when he arrives, no, he only goes and kills my fucking cat! I just hope to draw the "ring the RSPCA" card, because I dont think Rolf Harris is going to stand for this.

OK, Im now at 4 swamps, seems lke he has 4 too, but he has CatKiller 5/6 sat laughing in my general direction and I have fuck all to block with, the only card I can actually play is the tendrils of corruption, at least it seems thats going to cause 4 damage and I gained 1 from Magnus Magnussons ability, so its

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH its damage to his creatures, great, rookie mistake number 3, since those 4 damage didnt do anything to demon features, and now tendrils is dead, I guess I should have saved him for when I had 6 mana, job done. FUCK! I shudder to think of the laughing echoing round Canada now, why I posit that Black Barney MAY, MAY have had a little bit of wee come out as he laughs at my noobish folly here

19-13 down as my staff boosts me a bit, little do I know that my magely fat fingers just accidentally touched fleshbag marauder while laughing at Black Barney slightly wetting himself, and now I wasted ANOTHER card that could have killed demon, of course he had one shitty pete postlethwaite with him, so I waste the sacrifice on one of those clowns


At this point, I know it looks like I'm fucking clueless and I totally accept the point, I did spend too much time stealing panties from the witches guild changing rooms, but HONESTLY the previous few defeats I've not seen any of these creatures like the marauder or tendrils that I can at least see now would rid me of this demon if played at the right point


OK my 6th swamp down, down 10-20

ALRIGHT, Doom Blade doesnt do shit, and Veilborn ghoul seems kinda lame, but what have we here... yes, thats right, CRUEL REVIVAL which sounds like some shitty aging hippy rock band, but seems to destroy target non zombie creature
lets try this

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


Demon is summarily dispatched (beeyatch!), and not only that I get to yank big fat fucking fleshy marauder blob out of my graveyard where he's been doing the Uma Thurman finger pokey thing (unsuccessfully I might add) and can now be saved for being unleashed if the demon is ever sat there on his lonesome

I'm still 19-10 down but somehow I'm feeling a bit more cocky now. Yeah. Not so moist now eh, Mister Black Barney of Canada huh!



Now Im up to like 7 mana, but Veilborn Ghoul dude, who I STRONGLY suspect is just one of the many Scooby Doo janitors in a blanket, is a 4/1 without trample and thus FUCKING USELESS since he will get blocked by the postlers, anyway, I send him forth with a newly shopped Black Kitty Cat, oh it seems Ghouly dont do blocking, but at least Kitty Cat is up for it and dies again, ripping another card from his hand at least, only 7 more deaths to go kitty katty.

Its my go again, my life slowly increasing like the philosophical unstoppable force, impending doom lurking in the back of postlethwaites mind, ice cold fear gnawing at his self confidence as the night draws in around us both. 19-14 now and only one of your postlers in front of you. The Demons Whispers fade to silence, for now

I skip the ghoul attack as I dont know what to do with him. The postler can block him, sure, he has some kind of Uma Thurman skill too, but I dont see the point of just getting him killed to restore him later so I leave him hanging, like one of those annoying unresolved plot points in a bad movie, driving the thousands of people reading this report to speculate on their theories to the inner meaning of the ghouls presence, but this is not a David Lynch movie, but more like Lost, like, I'm just making bullshit up as I go along, and we knew they were fucking dead from the first episode you smarmy cunts

Hes just postling awa now, I think he knows his number is up, I just await some great evil to summon, though Im up to 9 mana and have only the spectacularly useless Doom Blade in hand. Hes now postling away at my mage and now I try to work out why fleshy marauder is back in the graveyard, huh? Did I click him into the action by accident. Fuck you Canada!


10 swamps up now, still just the Doom Blade, or as I call it the Lame Spoon. Let me know if any non black creatures show up will ya

19-13 down now and I'm starting to get nervous, those baldy fuckers are rising again, 4 of them all laid down on their sides, and again nothing but swamps

11 swamps and the Lame Spoon. Useless, wheres my fucking tendrils of dont worry this wont hurt a bit dear gone

fuck it, I send ghouly in, fuck, he didnt block, hes getting a demon hardon so maybe I should have sent ghouly in earlier!

he sends 4 postlers at me and adds a 5th after making the score 15-11, at least I know I can send Ghouly in again as demon is clearly about to jump through the paper stage rear again like a big camp badass, Surprise he will say with a lisp.

I draw swamp AGAIN. Its like the exact opposite of before, now all I get is swamp, 12 of the fuckers. Is this some kind of record

Ghouly does his thing, Im temporarily in the lead 12-11, but someones coming to visit.............

SHIT, 5 postlers (unblockable) and heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeres a 6th
wait, what, he only has 1 demon in his deck? what the fuck? thats.... weird. LUcky for me I guess, but why has he not been blocking ghouly then, this makes NO SENSE TO ME

I draw.... SWAMP. Fuck you. I do a virtual table flip, and can only pray that Barney has wet himself in his FAVOURITE TROUSERS

I'm 8-7 ahead but feel stupid as I didnt attack with ghoul a couple of times assuming it would be pointless

his 6 postlers get me down to 2, so now its all over as I draw Butcher Ghoul 1/1 undying. great. My kingdom is overrun by the fucking demonic horde and they send me a simple sausage maker to fix it.

I mean, NOW they block Ghouly for no apparent reason when they could have done it at any time before. so I guess I now lose

I lose

Fucking Noob

get the laundry bag Barney.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gary Sax, dragonstout, Camshaft, Erik Twice

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16 Aug 2013 15:05 #158684 by jeb
This is so delicious! You don't see a lot of folks totally new to MtG in this day and age! A good rule to keep in mind is that winning at 20 life is the same as winning at 1 life.

Against that pile of 1/1s that sacrifice themselves to to a 6/6 flyer? You need to read the cards to get what to do. That combo is a little fragile.

He needs to have SIX of those guys out to get the baddie. So one strategy is to not let him get that many. Use spells that kill his guys, sneaky blocking (like attacking, then untapping somehow and blocking, &c). Meanwhile, beat him down. Your 1/1s are "worse" than his 1/1s, as he really wants six of them to summon the big bad.

Alternately let him drop all those guys and summon the big bad--you know it's coming. Then remove THAT. You can either elimintae cards from his graveyard through some effect as the demon needs them there, or you can save a couple of firebolts and lay them all into the big fella.

If you have that green deck, then send your 3/3 guys in on the attack, he will block one and kill it, then use one of those "Fight" spells to hit him for another 3 damage. It's very costly, but it gets rid of that guy.

A lot of MtG comes down to timing your Instant speed spells. Things like Giant Growth can be cast at all kinds of interesting moments. (Unlike creatures, which can only be cast on your turn when nothing else is going on). So, attack with a 3/3. He will assign the demon to block, then hit that little hourglass to stop the clock. THEN you can cast Giant Growth to make your 3/3 a 6/6 and mutual. If you cast Giant Growth before attacking, he won't block it. Need to spring it on him.
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16 Aug 2013 15:23 #158688 by bomber
cool!

Theres a guy up the road who I will trade Sentinels of the Multiverse (enhanced) new, and I also have a couple of other games he wants that I dont, and he has like 9 kilos of cards, loads of commons and uncommmons so i said to him arent they worth not much, how many cards can I get for Sentinels (or Sentinels plus other stuff)

can any of you give me any advice, I dont want to bullshit him (I cant!) or rip him off, but I have no idea if I should be getting 50, 100, 1000, or 10000 cards off him

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16 Aug 2013 15:25 - 16 Aug 2013 15:29 #158689 by mikecl
This is a game I left behind a long time ago (late 90's) and one that soured me on CCG's for all time. As an aside my son got into it in high school but being the free enterpriser that he is quickly went from playing to trading and selling rares.

The kid made a FORTUNE because he was really, really good at it. The money he made buying and selling Magic cards just amazed me at the time. MTG taught him more about the free market economy than any number of books.

For me, that was the best thing to come out of that game.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 15:29 by mikecl.

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16 Aug 2013 15:25 #158690 by bomber
are the phases interchangeable though, it seemed like he played land, attacked them summoned, but Im doing land, summon, attack, I guess I just defaulted to that, but you can tap your mana the way he does it too I spose, since thats what he did!

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16 Aug 2013 15:44 - 16 Aug 2013 15:58 #158691 by bioball

ldsdbomber wrote: are the phases interchangeable though, it seemed like he played land, attacked them summoned, but Im doing land, summon, attack, I guess I just defaulted to that, but you can tap your mana the way he does it too I spose, since thats what he did!


So the phases are: Start Turn- Main Phase (part 1)- Attack- Main Phase (part II)- End Turn

Its common for new players in Main Phase I to: Lay Land, Summon Creature, Attack with creature previously summoned.

However the pros generally do what the AI is doing in Main Phase I: Play Spells that matter for the Attack, Attack, then lay land, summon creature

The difference is that by waiting until AFTER the attack to summon creatures, you may cause an opponent to target your attacking creature with a spell that he should have saved for the more deadly creature you just summoned.

Example "Hmmm he just summoned his 5/5 flyer and attacked with his 4/3 giant, well I'll take the 4 damage and Doom Blade (destroy target non-black creature) his flyer"

VS.

"Hmmm he attacked with his 4/3 giant so I'll Doom Blade it. Plays Doom Blade. Shit! Now I can't get ride of this 5/5 flyer he just summoned"

Also, you can play only one land per turn. But you can play that land in Main Phase I or II.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 15:58 by bioball.
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16 Aug 2013 16:35 - 16 Aug 2013 16:44 #158695 by jeb

ldsdbomber wrote: cool!

Theres a guy up the road who I will trade Sentinels of the Multiverse (enhanced) new, and I also have a couple of other games he wants that I dont, and he has like 9 kilos of cards, loads of commons and uncommmons so i said to him arent they worth not much, how many cards can I get for Sentinels (or Sentinels plus other stuff)

can any of you give me any advice, I dont want to bullshit him (I cant!) or rip him off, but I have no idea if I should be getting 50, 100, 1000, or 10000 cards off him

I traded away about 6,500 cards, which had probably not more than 5 of any one card, mostly commons and uncommmons, with a pile of janky rares too, at least 150 or so. For a copy of EARTH REBORN. Gives you an idea.

//
And bioball is on it here. You want to cast spells as "late" as possible. It's a little riskier in the iOS game because that timer can count down so fast you might miss your chance to hit the hourglass before it advances. but if you are comfy with that, I save a lot of instants to be cast during the opponent's end step.

Example:
It's my turn. I have a 2/1 Haste guy in my hand and a spell that deals 3 damage (a "bolt"). I can't cast both on the same turn, as I don't have enough mana.
I have a 2/2 guy out, and they have a 3/3 guy out.
Inexperienced players might: bolt their guy, attack for 2 and pass the turn.
More experienced players might: pass the turn.
--> They attack with the 3/3. I don't block. They put down another 3/3 and pass the turn. In their end step, I bolt the 3/3 that's still standing. Untap for my turn, play my 2/1 Haste guy and attack for 4. Now it's a race--his 3 per turn vs my 4 per turn--he needs to hang back to block, or at least he might, this is a tempo switch. If I had taken the other path, and they had that other 3/3 in hand; they would have cast it, and I would be back in the same situation as we'd started in, except now I don't have my burn spell anymore.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2013 16:44 by jeb.
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16 Aug 2013 16:48 #158696 by Ken B.
Ah, the opponent's end step...during which much "Pro" Magic is actually played.

That's how you know you're dealing with an experienced player, the first time they utter..."during your end step..."

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16 Aug 2013 16:55 #158697 by bomber
Awesome thx guys, this guy as 1500 cards or so nothing super rare so I guess I shouldn't have to trade too much for it

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16 Aug 2013 16:59 #158698 by dragonstout

jeb wrote: He needs to have SIX of those guys out to get the baddie. So one strategy is to not let him get that many.

Okay wow I've got a lot of stuff to read in this thread. But definitely DON'T do the above, not until the second wave. It's much better to let him sac 6 dudes and get a 6 for 1 by dealing with his demon than feel like you have to deal with every single apostle.

Okay, I'm going to read your game description now to see what you did wrong. Liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle hard to read with all the overdrama, though.

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16 Aug 2013 17:02 #158699 by Space Ghost
Yeah, I sent some dude on BGG about 3,000 cards for a copy of Monsters of the Midway.

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