- Posts: 1679
- Thank you received: 1526
Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)
Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.
Let's Talk: LEGACY EDITION
I've played a total of ~2 Risk Legacy campaigns. Once all the way through with grade schoolers at work over a several month period, and two that failed miserably 4-9 games through with supposedly well adjusted adults. Played through all of Pandemic Legacy Season 1 with the SO and in-laws and loved it to pieces, playing the entire thing in less than 3 weeks. I signed up to playtest Seafall, but couldn't get a group of 3-4 other folks to commit to even playing the first game. At its core, "Legacy" is just a fancy way of saying a campaign system, preferably with no way of hitting the UNDO button. Rob wanted to be a writer for Hasbro. His formative gaming experiences were being a DM with his buddies. Try to find some of his interviews about Risk or Pandemic- they're fascinating, and a bunch of gaming podcasts have done them with him.
Although not made by Rob, Gloomhaven and Kingdom Death Monster are essentially legacy games too. In KDM you aren't instructed to destroy your mini's when they die, but that'd make it totally hardcore and pricey, especially if you paint those bastards. The perma death and price point of KDM make it comparable to just buying a bunch of Legacy copies of something, tbh. They're also both cooperative, which I think is the best way for these Legacy games to function. Even something like Descent Road to Legend can be thought of as a precursor to this trend. Dungeon crawls lend themselves to this naturally, but the destruction of materials and adding campaigns to normally more boring games is the wrinkle here, and Rob deserves a lot of credit. (A meeting about Clue originally inspired the 'legacy' idea).
I've identified 3 traits to make campaign systems succeed in tabletop.
1. Taking a known property that we know is already a fun[ctional] game
2 Cooperative gameplay
3. Narrative opportunity
Pandemic Legacy hits all three points right on the head. Risk Legacy has issues with point 2, and Seafall basically fails all three tests. Betrayal will be good; I think 2 is mostly there, but the narrative opportunity is enormous, and a huge draw of this kind of system.
But taking a known game is perhaps the most important criterion. When you take a classic like Risk, give it a shorter playtime with a simple scoring system, you've got an instant audience. "Hey, you wanna play Risk?" "I don't have all night!" "Yeah, but this version is over in 90 minutes, and you already know how to play." "Okay, sure!" It's an expansion to a game we already know. Starting with a simple, known game with minor adaptations makes it much easier to slowly add more rules to it. Although Pandemic Legacy was already a short game (a big reason I wasn't interested in it to begin with), creating long term choices at the end of the game was a great idea. Seafall is an opaque euro optimization conflict thingy. You can create "enmity," but you don't know why any of it matters. Players are literally adrift at sea holding their dicks, hoping that a well-written storey paragraffe will save their evening. Game 1 has to be low entry and fun, or else no one will commit to playing this kind of game.
Risk ends in people flipping tables or refusing to play more games to complete the mutual investment in time and resources. Seafall, as I understand it, resulted in people being bored when it's not their turn. Pandemic, 'alpha-player' problem and all, results in people working together on stuff, discussing the long and short term ramifications of every choice, and eagerly anticipating the next game. Cooperation keeps people engaged on every turn and looking forward together. The potential downside of having an imbalanced game in a legacy setting is much less of an issue without competition. I'm sure that imbalanced situations is what has killed more Road to Legend/Descent 2.0/Imperial Assault campaigns than anything else, but I can totally see a team of ass-kicking heroes wanting to keep playing in those situations, because at least they're feeling the cooperative aspect.
Without some kind of a story, it doesn't make sense to link things together at all. If your goal is to make the most pointastic salad for Caesar and flex your cardboard laurel, just keeping one of those nerd-ass point journals and telling BGG "I scored 42 points as a mutton glutton" is sufficient. But writing your name on stuff (including characters), tearing up cards, and adding mechanics is fun in a shared experience. At some point I'd like to do a spoiler-full Pandemic Legacy Season 1 discussion, because I think that the narrative power of the mechanical changes was quite well done and clever, even if the story beats themselves were pretty ho-hum and predictable. Tearing apart rooms and lighting fire to character cards in Betrayal? Hell-fucking-yes. Rob wrote the paragraphs for the original Betrayal, I have no doubt that this will be a modern classic, and one of the biggest games that comes out in whatever year it comes out.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
So I disagree entirely that a Legacy game needs to be cooperative. I never liked Risk, but we all had a blast with R:L and enjoyed the competitive nature of it.
I also love Gloomhaven, but its Legacy aspects are minimal and just add a bit to the overall experience.
Charterstone is coming soon, and is a completely competitive and original Legacy game, which would go against your 1 and 2. We’ll see how that does. Early buzz is very good, if not necessarily exuberant.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Uncertainty is what makes it hard for a group to get formed and commit to something like this, which is why point 1 is so big to me. (Risk Legacy also seemed to make less of an emphasis on playing with the same crew every single game). Uncertainty about the later plays is what can make them harder to design. Uncertainty is already baked into Betrayal's gameplay, and it's welcomed! This is why I think it's such a natural fit. If shit gets really weird, it's working as intended.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
I wouldn't buy it in that case.
Gloomhaven is releasing some kind of sticker thing though. At that point we should just go back to pen and paper RPGs...
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- hotseatgames
- Offline
- D12
- Posts: 7162
- Thank you received: 6270
But Betrayal, I'm doing it.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Jexik wrote: I did multiple copies with R:L - it was separate groups in separate locations. Setting up to not make permanent changes sounds like one of the silliest ways to spend one's time and money, up there with sleeving 2000 dominion cards. It would only make sense if both A) You felt the chances of you playing through the campaign was very low and You'd like to resell it.
That's kind of what I figured but I also kind of figured people didn't play these through multiple times, so I figured I'd ask.
I've got a copy of Pandemic Legacy S1 that I need to start. I eventually bored of regular Pandemic and gave my copy away, but I figure the Legacy elements will spice it up enough for another dozen plays or so.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- southernman
- Away
- D10
- TOTALLY WiReD
- Posts: 4215
- Thank you received: 1516
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Period.
Pandemic Legacy with the SO? Less so. Much less so. Here's what I wrote to some of my gaming buddies:
"Pandemic Legacy isn't lame. But it is 100% overrated. YMMV. If you enjoy Pandemic, Pandemic Legacy is arguably better. I found Risk Legacy a superior game, because of it's game "chassis." Risk has a very simple rule set. It's Legacy features complement the set without burden, but more importantly - the board evolves purely from player interaction. The Legacy features in Pandemic evolve from a timed script. Variables exist, but they're superficial.
In summary; Gamers play Risk Legacy. Pandemic Legacy plays Gamers.
Co-ops aren't my thing"
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- SuperflyPete
- Offline
- Salty AF
- SMH
- Posts: 10733
- Thank you received: 5119
It’d be fuck all expensive but it would be the best game ever made, ever.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
I'm also not kidding when I say that Pandemic: Cthulhu: Legacy: The Crossroads Game would actually be pretty great. You'd have to destroy the crossroads cards once you use them though so you don't have to sit through the writing twice.
Going insane could be something that gradually happens over the course of many games. The text below the triggers on the crossroads cards could be scratch off so you don't accidentally spoil them. (Or it could be app-supported, but the scratch off is probably more fun, maybe even include like an elder sign scratch off thingy). You could put a sticker on the back of the board halfway through. It could be amazing. i got no insider information here; just grandstanding.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- SuperflyPete
- Offline
- Salty AF
- SMH
- Posts: 10733
- Thank you received: 5119
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- san il defanso
- Offline
- D10
- ENDUT! HOCH HECH!
- Posts: 4623
- Thank you received: 3560
In the process of paring down my collection to be able to move (some of) it overseas, I've come to really resent my copy of Pandemic Legacy. I did complete the game, and I enjoyed it well enough, but then what do I do with it? The obvious answer is that it is either a museum piece or it just needs to be thrown away. And I've come to the conclusion that this is really crappy.
Here's the thing, while I enjoyed the story beats, none of them were so transcendent that they justified a completely new game. I've had a lot of really dramatic moments in a lot of games, and those did not require me to buy a completely new game that is essentially "used up" upon completion of the story. Sure you COULD play it more upon completion, but changing the game IS the game. When that possibility is gone it's hard to get too excited about anything else.
I think Legacy games feel too much like DRM on a video game. You can only play on the designers' terms. Either that manifests itself as a limited amount of play or in a very structured narrative. But both of these kick against the real personal nature of table games, which for me is something essential to the hobby. I don't think any narrative that could be imposed on the game is worth that trade-off.
I do think that Pandemic Legacy was too scripted, and I can see Betrayal being better this way, since it doesn't require the designers to craft a story that everyone should follow. But I'm going to skip it most likely, because Legacy games have taken this hobby too far from what I want it to be.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.