Euro or Hybrid?

Alright, so I've been reading along with Charlie and Pete in the Scythe thread and there was some debate as to whether the game was a Euro or a hybrid game. I didn't want to derail their discussion so I started this thread instead.

Over the years the line between Euro and Hybrid has been getting more and more blurred. Game designers have no problem mixing Euro with ameritrash and vice versa. More importantly players have fully embraced the hybrids as a "best of both worlds" situation.

Still, I find that many people have differing thoughts and opinions on what is a "straight Euro" and what is considered a hybrid game. So I'm curious as to what you think constitutes as a Euro game? What must a game have to fit that classification? At what point does it become a hybrid?

For me, a lot of it comes down to the degree of abstraction. If characters are wood chips and the theme is presented only as a map on a board or in some italicized paragraph in the rules, it's a Euro. If there's an attempt to make it visually interesting and engaging, or has stats or some RPGish element, it's getting towards AT on the spectrum.

I have always felt that if luck is a significant factor, you are in AT land.

Man this is so murky. What everyone's said sounds great, and I agree with Mark's luck thing - but I totally think if you changed Eclipse combat to be deterministic it'd still be a hybrid.

Likewise, I think Clockwork Wars is a hybrid.

I think Scythe definitely leans hard towards the Euro spectrum but I personally still see it as a hybrid. The battle resolution can be dramatic and it awards points for area control. I would say that anytime you have direct conflict and area control it qualifies as a hybrid.

I wouldn't argue too hard though as I don't feel the label is that important. Interesting discussion nonetheless.

Artificial balancing mechanisms are more Euro than Hybrid. For example, if you lose a combat but receive any sort of benefit, that's Euro. AT games and even Hybrids are not vested in enforcing a close game.

Non-trivial luck and direct conflict/interaction between players would be two factors that define an AT game, and a high degree of abstraction (or "pasted on" theme, depending on whether you're going pejorative or not) with almost complete determinism would be two traits of a straight euro.

Also, I think you could parse hybrids into AT-euro hybrids - AT games that incorporate euro mechanics - and euro-AT hybrids; euros that use AT concepts. AT-euro hybrids seem to use euro mechanics to streamline play and foster emergent gameplay while also preserving interaction between players. Cthulhu Wars utilizes this wonderfully with its Old One > Monster > Cultist area control heirarchy where Monsters can capture an enemy's cultist in the same area (AT concept) as long as an enemy unit of the same or greater rank isn't present (euro mechanic).

charlest wrote: Man this is so murky. What everyone's said sounds great, and I agree with Mark's luck thing - but I totally think if you changed Eclipse combat to be deterministic it'd still be a hybrid.

Likewise, I think Clockwork Wars is a hybrid.

I think Scythe definitely leans hard towards the Euro spectrum but I personally still see it as a hybrid. The battle resolution can be dramatic and it awards points for area control. I would say that anytime you have direct conflict and area control it qualifies as a hybrid.

I wouldn't argue too hard though as I don't feel the label is that important. Interesting discussion nonetheless.

Would El Grande be a hybrid, because it's got area control? Settlers of Catan has area denial and control and negotiation...it's a hybrid but people call it a pure Euro.

I think labels are useful for people for brevity's sake when discussing, but there's no doubt in my mind that Scythe is 100% Euro (Point Salad Bullshit, per Mark).

Cyclades is what I'd call a hybrid, but there's not much Euro there, really, so it's not really a hybrid, it's Ameritrash.

Shellhead wrote: Artificial balancing mechanisms are more Euro than Hybrid. For example, if you lose a combat but receive any sort of benefit, that's Euro. AT games and even Hybrids are not vested in enforcing a close game.

FUCKING THIS....NAILED IT.

If there's a catchup mechanic in any way, shape, or form, it's a European style game.

SuperflyTNT wrote:

charlest wrote: Man this is so murky. What everyone's said sounds great, and I agree with Mark's luck thing - but I totally think if you changed Eclipse combat to be deterministic it'd still be a hybrid.

Likewise, I think Clockwork Wars is a hybrid.

I think Scythe definitely leans hard towards the Euro spectrum but I personally still see it as a hybrid. The battle resolution can be dramatic and it awards points for area control. I would say that anytime you have direct conflict and area control it qualifies as a hybrid.

I wouldn't argue too hard though as I don't feel the label is that important. Interesting discussion nonetheless.

Would El Grande be a hybrid, because it's got area control? Settlers of Catan has area denial and control and negotiation...it's a hybrid but people call it a pure Euro.

I think labels are useful for people for brevity's sake when discussing, but there's no doubt in my mind that Scythe is 100% Euro (Point Salad Bullshit, per Mark).

Cyclades is what I'd call a hybrid, but there's not much Euro there, really, so it's not really a hybrid, it's Ameritrash.

Nah on El Grande and Catan. I said Area Control AND conflict, I think both need to be there. I don't think it's absolute, just something that immediately has me leaning hybrid.

I can't think of anything I'd call a straight up Euro that had area control and direct conflict.

Cyclades definitely has some Euro elements, I think. The not being able to be attacked if you're only on a single island. The auction itself. The way Apollo works (especially offering a catch up mechanic of more coins if you're on a single island), also the way you need to win two or more auctions just to attack someone means it's somewhat telegraphed.

Motherfucking NEXUS OPS has a catch-up mechanic, and if that's not AT I am done with this site.

jeb wrote: Motherfucking NEXUS OPS has a catch-up mechanic, and if that's not AT I am done with this site.

Are you talking about the different starting amounts of Rubium? That's not a catch-up mechanic. That's simply trying to get people starting on a more even playing field. And I don't really think it works very well.

hotseatgames wrote:

jeb wrote: Motherfucking NEXUS OPS has a catch-up mechanic, and if that's not AT I am done with this site.

Are you talking about the different starting amounts of Rubium? That's not a catch-up mechanic. That's simply trying to get people starting on a more even playing field. And I don't really think it works very well.

Energize Cards for losing battles.

I guess it's been a while. I forgot all about that. Maybe I never even played like that.

Damned good point, guys. Now see yourselves out.

Seriously, though....that's a pretty good metric, IMO. There's some exceptions, like that one, or like the power track in Cthulhu Wars, but on balance, you can pretty much know that if there's a catch up mechanic it's probably Euro-ey.

I posted this on an article a gamer mate wrote about theme:
As you know I like a good dollop of theme in my games, and I combine that with bits and objectives (that's my stuff there and I have to do this with them to win)
That's my simple definition of AT games (or maybe just games that I like).
On the other hand if it has set collections and multiple paths of VPs then it's a stinking Euro (but someone is bound to find a favourite game of mine that fits that, although I do play the odd euro/hybrid).
Additionally many of us regard the 'German' games of the 90s (Settlets and others) as separate to euros - euros being the soul-less, fleshless downstream branch of the original German games.