In Defense of Kickstarter

Ok, here is a list,
Games that I feel are just outstanding
Codex
Argent
Core worlds 2nd expansion
Pixel Tactics Deluxe
Millennium Blades
Mare Nostrum - Empires
Spirit Island
Techno-bowl

Mileage may vary
Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King
Battle Con - quite a few
Ninja All-stars (I use the minis more than the game here)
Yomi
Any of the Sentinels of the Multiverse expansions (I know these are a little polarizing but i have a ton of time clocked on these)
Anachrony (I like the game a lot but its not amazing)
Aeon's End (a neat deckbuilding co-op, i really dig co-ops so I am happy with it. It is not Spirit island however.)

Lackluster
Myst (I still got a great collection of RPG minnies and so still feel I did ok)
Galactic Strike Force (this is ok, it is just not a great co-op)

Up in the air
Rising sun (I studied up all i could on this and bought in. but can't say more without product in hand)
Mistborn : House war (I have it but have not played it.)

On the whole I am happy with my Kickstarters on the boardgame front. I have some stuff that has under preformed, but I have used the hell out of even some of those.

In general, I think it's a pretty mixed bag. There's a ton of shit chasing the mini money but then there are passion projects that require a bigger budget to do, which is in my mind the "idealistic" end of the system that is Good.

Looking at my own... I've bailed out at the last minute on a lot, the only ones I've backed are:

Catacombs
Twilight Struggle Collectors
Argent 2nd edition
Space Cadets

The ones I haven't played much of are Catacombs and space cadets, which by all accounts are quite good games. I also have a number of kickstarter games on my shelf that I enjoy---Argent 1st and Xia come to mind---that I didn't back

So I think overall it has a lot to answer for but also a lot to be proud of in the game space. The real question is the counterfactual, which I think is where you guys are spot on. Which of the above wouldn't have been printed with kickstarter? I don't know, I can't answer that.

Timely, I'm contemplating this as I look at 7th Continent. On the good side, it's a 2nd edition of a game that I'm hearing many good things about, in a genre I like. Reduces risk. On the bad side it is very expansive with lots of additional module expansion to drive up the price. Which is shady.

I have backed no first-run Kickstarters. Everything I have backed has been a second-edition, expansion or a successful PNP game that is transitioning to a full production.

I have backed a whopping three games:
D-Day Dice (which I flipped for more than I payed when it looked like it would never be reprinted)
Warpath (which I flipped before release for way more than I payed)
Sentinels of the Multiverse: Oblivaeon (I love SotM, so getting a nice storage box and basically an advanced mode sounds awesome)
Kingdom Death: Monster (the second KS, because as I said: I do not back first-runs, and I'm really interested in the game)

I own very few games that were Kickstarters in their initial release: SotM and BattleCON. Both games I purchased retail and after they had already had a second edition release. In general, I think most Kickstarter games feel underdeveloped and lack a "tightness" that I would like to see in my games. Granted, I do not actually play that many games anymore, but that has been my general experience. Flash and theme make up a much greater component of the experience than I am generally comfortable with.

charlest wrote: Heavily disagree with you on Blood Rage Erik. I've played that close to 30 times now (mostly with experienced players) and I'm not sure if I've gone Loki more than once or twice. I've won over 40% of the games I've played and never felt like Loki was overpowered. I won my last game going heavy into battles as my secondary strategy (questing is almost always my main strategy, but it depends on how the cards shake out).

For me it's not so much that Loki cards are overpowered as they are undercosted. That is, you don't need to spend much rage or cards or anything to use them to good effect and they often have a heavy effect on the game. For example there's an Era 1 card that gives you 1VP for each unit that returns from Valhalla, amount to 16-20 points during the game. And it costs only 1 fury.

For battles I mean mostly the "axe" strategy that increases the amount of points you get on each battle like the Valkyrie. The thing is that, if you run the numbers, there are not enough battles for these cards to shine. Worse, they do not truly help you actually win those battles and the amount of VPs gained is not enough to win because scores tend not to be very close. These cards are also outclassed in VPs gained by cards that clearly weren't mean to do so, like the "discard all battle cards" card.

Having backed about 20 games, flipping 80% of them without breaking the plastic , the only game I truly regret is Sandy Petersen's Orcs Must Die. Not only did it immediately drop in value by 70%, I broke the seal and played a couple of games "trying" to really love it. I suppose that Dicenstein is another one, but that's not as much of a loss. I just never care to play it again.

At the same time, I found my favorite game, Cthulhu Wars, and likely would not have ever got a chance to play without kickstarter. The part that drives me nuts about Kickstarter is that people go ape shit for getting their new kickstarter game to the table and it's usually not what I want to play because I fully expect a turd.

There is roughly a zero percent chance that I will ever play a kickstarter euro.

Shellhead wrote: There is roughly a zero percent chance that I will ever play a kickstarter euro.

Aw, come on, no love for Trickerion or Feudum?

Yeah, me neither.

Ok, my list of potential shame:

Zombicide Green Horde - more Zombicide, should be ok.
Reissue of Deep Space D6 - FTL in cardboard, should be ok.
Flow of History - Enjoyed the demos, fair price.
Morels Foray - Umm....
Bios Genesis 2nd Edition - I like Greenland and Neanderthal, so why not.
Rising Sun - Nope, bailed with $1; won't get played in my group and I'm honestly starting to distrust Lang. His designs aren't always a hit for me.
Champions of Midgard reprint - totally frivolous, but hey, it might replace Lords of Waterdeep I guess?
KDM 1.5 - because masochism
Omen Edge of the Aegean - quite nice, actually. I can think of worse ways to spend $15
Siege of the Citadel - shit, I'm really not so sure about this one. Kinda worried, actually. It still seems very... unfocused.
Near & Far - a Laukatified Runebound; pretty good, but probably not good enough to keep around
Massive Darkness - still facepalming. Good minis, I guess
Xia expansion + base - Zero regrets on this one, especially with the expansion material
Darkest Night - without minis; not that it matters because the crappy looking minis are slowing the project down anyway
This War of Mine - nope, bailed with $1
Dark Souls - bullet dodged; still getting email pleas to fill out my pledge manager. Never going to happen
Evolution Climate - no regrets, great game
Nemo's War - outstanding
Arcadia Quest Inferno - shitshow; all product sold, mostly at break-even, maybe slight profit
Sword & Sorcery - Hmmm... not so sure about this one, still.
The Others - bailed at $1
Gloom of Kilforth - no regrets; very nice game

... it keeps going, but I'll stop

Aside from Laukat, my response to most KS product has been mercurial. I either really enjoy it, or I struggle to get the thing sold/traded fast enough.

Mmm.

Twilight Struggle CE. Gave it away to a FATtie.

Some Mars Euro thing which I ordered when drunk and then forgot about it after I watched that Mars survivor movie. Rule book was so shit a volunteer had to rewrite it.

A ton of Reaper miniatures because I thought I might learn how to paint (didn't). Remains unopened with a ton of paint and brushes.

High Frontier - Eklunds masterpiece. Can't fit it on my table and the map ripped when I tried to. Bollocks.

Glamazons (nuff said)

So not altogether successful.

I ordered the VPG chariot game, which failed their Kickstarter.

I've mainly backed new editions or new printings of games already released. I figure the regret ratio for those is on par with blind buying any other well reviewed game and some I had already played anyways.

Omen: Reign of War - I think this was the 2nd printing. Bought it mainly on recommendations here. Solid game.

Lost Valley - I ended up preferring the 1st Edition. 2nd Edition was a mess and not close enough to the original. Only KS I regret but really had no way of knowing and would have pre-ordered the retail version anyway.

Incursion - My most expensive KS and no regrets. Great minis and dudes in a corridor gameplay.

Space Cadets: AM - I think I got it at the same time as some other game that was a bigger hit so we never went past the first 2 scenarios. Everyone liked it though.

Cthulhu Wars - OS2 after buying the base game from CSI I think for cheaper than the KS. Just got 2 factions (Sleeper, Opener) and 1 board (Library) for variety and high priests. Have only played the base game so far but I haven't played since receiving the expansions so I'm sure high priests at least will get used next time.

Nemo's War- I owned and had played the 1st Edition so no surprises here. Definitely an improvement.

Hold the Line 2nd - I've played the 1st Edition. Came with some broken cannon minis but glue and five minutes would fix that. Otherwise seems good. My 2-player gaming is more limited now and tends to focus around a few games so will probably list this one for sale soon.

Guns & Steel: Renaissance - Already owned and was a fan of the first G&S game. This one is just as good.

Herbaceous - Total impulse buy but I'd rather impulse $19 than $190. Still haven't played but it delivered and the quality is good.

Heroes of Normandie - So many tokens to sort and I don't even have everything. The new Heroes of Warhammer 40k game looks cool but I've already got more Heroes stuff than I'll ever use.

Sword & Sorcery - Never played Galaxy Defenders but this has been a hit. Action RPG in a box about sums it up. Not sure if it'll be a classic but definitely above average for dungeon crawlers.

GameTek: The Book - Estimated Delivery October 2017.

Will probably back the next Too Many Bones KS with nothing on my radar beyond that.

EDIT: There have been no KS's that I've regretted missing out on.

I have only once Kickstarted a game that was shit , and only got fucked once on one (Glamazons/Chainmail Bikini) which did not surprise me because I basically assumed I'd be making a 20$ donation to a performance artist. Which is exactly what I did, and I'm good with that. The only other "stinker" I got was Reaper Bones, and it wasn't so much a stinker as much as once you have 20,000,000,000,000,000 models in your home you realize "Fuck that shit" and give away all but 20, the ones you wanted to begin with.

WINNERS:
XIA and Expansion
Massive Darkness (which I made 100$ on one day after it arrived....I am now hip to the CMON flip game and it is my version of Bitcoin mining)
$uper Pac$ - top 3 favorite card game of all time. Seriously, he who doesn't own this is fucking up at life.
Exploding Kittens - We liked this a lot and I made some coin off of it.
Space Cadets Away Missions - WINNER.
Strange Aeons 2nd Ed - OMG. Still one of the best miniature games ever made.
Dwarven Forge #1 - Loved it, played it, sold it for almost double what I paid for it.
Worldsmith Industries: Wrecked Vehicles - Fucking rad, cheap scatter terrain for sci-fi miniatures. Love it.

LOSERS:
Cthulhu's Vault - Mostly because I don't understand how it was supposed to work and have unimaginative friends.

I back different types of tech projects, albums and games via kickstarter, so I don't share this negative view toward crowdfunded projects. Obviously, creatives who can design a game can't necessarily manage millions of dollars, supply chains and expectations (sort of like classic TSR). Nevertheless, in the hundred or so games I played last year, most had big publishers, veteran developers and the majority were not fun. I've relied on kickstarter for a couple of my own projects and it's great. Without it, they would not have been made.

As someone currently pitching a project to publishers now, I enjoy having the alternative of crowdfunding it if I choose. Not everyone is aiming to have a million dollar kickstarter for five pounds of plastic.

While waiting for an Apple Password Recovery, I'll chime in.
Long time, no post. As per normal, I've been lurking and reading this thread with interest. Interest insofar as my deep dive into Kickstarter. I am the one Michael Barnes is often lambasting when kicking Kickstarter. MS and other are not absolutely correct. Nor are they absolutely incorrect.

My line up, from start to finish(?):

Zpocalypse: An Epic Zombie Survival Board Game = Read the rules, admired the minis, and sold it for a loss.

Zombicide: Season 3 = Split the box corners, but otherwise mint. I don't think I'll even open it. Time to sell.

Zombicide: Season 2 = Played a handful of times. It was pretty gnarly, perhaps a little too clunky.

Zombicide: Green Horde = IDK WTF I'm doing backing another Zombicide title

Zombicide: Black Plague = Revamped Zombicide? Sure. Turns out, it's better! Also, better is not good enough for me anymore.

Zombicide = Early adopter, and I got it all. After a few years, I'm left with 'meh.'

ZipChip = Frisbee alternative for my brother and I. Its fun.

World Wide Wrestling RPG: Pro Wrestling Action, Drama & Fun! = Have not played, but I love wrestling. It's a fun read.

Warpath - The Sci-fi Battle Game = Backed for a buck to keep tabs on it's development. Never pledged a larger amount.

Vengeance = Pledged two bucks for development tabs and a song? Never pledged larger, and doubt I'll ever hunt this down in the marketplace.

Upshur Street Books = Support for a local bookstore.

Tiny Epic Kingdoms = Cute game that I sold for a wash. I just could not stand the illustrations. Super Fugly.

This Town Aint Big Enough for the 2-4 of Us! = Adorable, and I actually prefer this over Carcassonne.

The Others: 7 Sins = Part of the Eric Lang train of love and hate. IDK if I like this or not, never played. It gathers dust while I try to determine if I can find a play group for it.

TerrainCrate = Plastic, affordable, fantasy terrain! - Waiting for a 2018 deliver. I'm actually pretty excited for this.

Templar Intrigue - A Werewolf type game = Sold it.

Supershow: Unpredictable Wrestling Action ft the Rising Sun = A wrestling card game that is light and fun, though I honestly don't understand the huge obsession some have with the system.

Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King = I thought this title would help solve my problems with the original SDE. It did not. Sold it.

Star Saga - The Sci-fi Dungeon Crawler = Waiting. Looking forward to it.

Scorpion Brewing Company Malting Expansion = Support for a local brewery

Rising Sun = Pledged a buck so I could troll the comments.

Power Of Grayskull = Pledged a buck cause I love MOTU and this KS's updates.

Ogre Designer's Edition = I fell for the nostalgia hype, despite never playing it back in the day. I sold it for a small profit.

Mythos Tales = Looks cool, just waiting for a opportunity to play with the Mrs.

Mythic Battles: Pantheon = Questioning my sanity about backing this. I think I did it for the mini compatibility for Conan.

Miniature Holders & Grips for painting and sculpting = Excellent tool for the studio.

Massive Darkness = I thought this would be an excellent value, bridging Zombicide and Dungeon Crawling. I don't think I'll bother. Time to let everything go.

Mars Attacks - The Miniatures Game = I love MA, and I love DeadZone. This is like peanut butter and chocolate!

Lobotomy Board Game = I pledged a buck, and am fortunate to have dodged this bullet.

Legends of Cthulhu Retro Action Figure Toy Line = I'm a big fan of the development team, and these figures look kick ass in my office.

Kaosball = High hopes for an Eric Lang hit. It may work for some, but not me. Gotta get this on eBay.

Iron Golems = Fantasy Football Wood Elf Team - Jeff White made me do this. I look forward to painting them this winter.

I Hate Zombies. = BoardGameGeek Micro Game #1! = Played a few times and sold it.

How to Give Birth to a Rabbit = Support for a local theater production.

Historia = My wife really likes this title, so we'll keep. Icon salad as it is...

Gloomhaven (Second Printing) = Pledge a buck to keep tabs on things, and left it there. Not enough time in my life to enjoy this title's magnitude.

Ghostbusters™: The Board Game = Treated myself to this after winning my Fantasy Football League. The commish and I are GB fans, so we occasionally play it. I think I prefer it to anything Zombicide.

Ghostbusters: The Board Game II = Paid for this with money from a mail insurance claim. Anyway, I have it and have looked at it. That's it. I still have more to go in GB. My impression? It may be following the path of Zombicide as in; more rules = less fun.

Get your own DIY Paper Mask = An experiment with paper sculpture. Fun stuff.

Friday the 13th: The Game = My Xbox group got download codes from me for the holidays. After a few beers, we really enjoy this game.

Foldio360 – A smart turntable to create stunning 360 images = Lighting equipment for the studio.
Estimated delivery Jul 2016

Foldio3 - Take bigger ideas = Lighting equipment for the studio.

Foldio2, “BIGGER & SMARTER” = MORE lighting equipment for the studio. I really like this stuff.

Exploding Kittens = My wife likes the Oatmeal, and I'm like, "WTF is the Oatmeal?" Fucking A, this game is terrible.

Escape the Dark Castle = I like the graphics. I don't know if I'll like the game. We'll see.

Dungeon Saga: The Dwarf King's Quest = I read some earlier hate about this title. To each his own I guess. I like the game play and I like the miniatures. I don't like the card graphics. All of the expansions are pretty neat, some more than others. The only stinker I've encountered is a supplement called "The Adventurers Companion." The book is riddled with dumb. Otherwise, this thing plays like Heroquest with honest-to-God interesting combat choices.

Dungeon Roll - Winter Promo Pack = I thought I enjoyed playing DR. I ultimately decided I did not. Sold it.

Dungeon Roll - A Dicey Dungeon Delve = Cute dice game, but not for me. Sold it.

DUNGEON DEGENERATES - HAND OF DOOM Fantasy Board Game = I love the graphics, but only kept a dollar pledge. As cool as it looks, I couldn't convince myself that anyone in my gaming group would dig it.

DreadBall Xtreme - The Brutal Sci-fi Sports Board Game = I FUCKING LOVE DREADBALL. I really dig these 12 new teams. I'm only luke warm about the actual spin off game 'Xtreme.'

DreadBall - The Futuristic Sports Game 2 = I became part of the rules development, so I'm clearly biased. I'll repeat I FUCKING LOVE DREADBALL.

DreadBall - The Futuristic Sports Game = I took a chance with my gaming group, and we split the costs going "all-in." No regrets. This game is fun as hell.

Dracula’s Feast: A monstrous game of secrets and deduction = Dracula is my spirit animal. I got this title last week, and I'm taking it to a residency in a few days.

Do It With A Deep One = Joke pledge for Sandy Petersen

Deep Madness = I really don't know why I keep backing these dudes-in-a-hallway games. I really like the visuals on this, I really like the theme. We'll see...

Custom Dice for Horror themed Arkham and Eldritch Games! = Dice. That's it. Dice.

Cthulhu Wars Onslaught 3 = Love me some CW.

Cthulhu Wars : Onslaught Two = I told the Petersen family (at Gencon) that their first KS sucked. They placated me with two free minis and encouraged me to check out Onslaught Two. I did. I'm glad. CW is great.

Cthulhu - The Art of Richard Luong = Love the art. Got the book and some minis. Sold extra minis on eBay for a small fortune.

Conan: The Book of Set = I'm digging Conan. I need a steady group to run through this campaign.

Conan = Pretty fucking neat game. I'm glad I got it, warts and all. Revised rulebook is a big help.

Coin Age - A PAY-WHAT-YOU-WANT area control microgame = Pretty neat area control game. Fits in my wallet!

Coconuts "Crazy Monkey" Dexterity Game for 2-4 Players! = Super fun game, that I ultimately sold for a profit. I got rid of it cause it was just a little too messy for my wife. Too many balls on the floor!

Christopher Dolan: Residency at the Vermont Studio Center = Support for a colleague.

Burgoo - A PAY-WHAT-YOU-WANT game of community stews = Cute, but not for me. Tile salad got sold for a small profit.

Artist Residency at Vermont Studio Center to create new work = Support for another colleague.

Arcadia Quest = Pledge a buck to see what happened. Left it at that.

Age of Conan Strategy Boardgame – It's Back! = Haven't played it yet. Looking to do so with my future Conan group that runs through the book of Set.

50 sHAdes of VORpal = Totally bonkers. I supported this on a whim. Crazy read for minimal investment ($5).

I only got burned once, and that was from some fucker who couldn't send me some Arkham Horror related dice. I lost twenty bucks.

So it goes.

I track all my game-related Kickstarters over on TOS:

www.rpggeek.com/geeklist/154871/my-crowdfunding-projects

I've done a few non-game Kickstarters (kids' books, a few doo-dads) that have been uneventful and successful.

Overall, I am meh on Kickstarter, mostly as a corollary "meh" to buying new games generally.

Almost two years ago, I broke down all my Kickstarters and ran some numbers on them:

Some statistics:

Total projects backed: 35

Would I do it again?
Yes: 11 (31.4%)
No: 18 (51.4%)
Maybe: 6 (17.1%)

Clearly, most things that sound cool to me are not so cool in retrospect.

Total Dollars per Category
Yes: $308.00
No: $720.00
Maybe: $290.00

This is even clearer. When I regret things, I regret them big.

Average Dollars per Category
Yes: $34.22
No: $36.00
Maybe: $48.33

Not quite as clear. The yes/no numbers are pretty close. I am surprised to see "maybe" running away with it. Perhaps it is more sticker shock than anything else.

When I eventually get around to re-calculating the numbers, they'll probably be even less favorable.

Generally, I think that most things which are worth having will eventually be sold on Amazon, and probably cheaper than I could get it by Kickstarting it. There are probably a few things that wouldn't exist without it, but oh well -- I still have more stuff than I need, enough to entertain me for decades.

Mad Dog wrote: Space Cadets: AM - I think I got it at the same time as some other game that was a bigger hit so we never went past the first 2 scenarios. Everyone liked it though.