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In Defense of Kickstarter

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06 Oct 2017 08:29 #255289 by hotseatgames
Before Kickstarter, how did people ever manage to carry their games around? Surely not in normal bags.
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06 Oct 2017 09:09 - 06 Oct 2017 09:10 #255292 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic In Defense of Kickstarter
Heavily disagree with you on Blood Rage Erik. I've played that close to 30 times now (mostly with experienced players) and I'm not sure if I've gone Loki more than once or twice. I've won over 40% of the games I've played and never felt like Loki was overpowered. I won my last game going heavy into battles as my secondary strategy (questing is almost always my main strategy, but it depends on how the cards shake out).

I don't think I've ever regretted a Kickstarter, mostly because I cut bait and sell if I have any doubts. I was close with Up Front, but I was one of the few people who requested a refund and Rik Falch didn't stop it (he started responding to them via Kickstarter just after mine went through).

Kickstarter has helped me pay for much of my hobby expenses as reselling pledges can be quite lucrative. I haven't lost money on a single pledge after having backed somewhere around 40 games over the years. I even made money off Sedition Wars. Much of it is timing.
Last edit: 06 Oct 2017 09:10 by charlest.

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06 Oct 2017 09:17 #255293 by Sagrilarus

Bernie wrote: I think some of it is fine. I have a ton of backed projects at this point. Only two seem to be duds. I have hit on what I feel are every bit as good as any normal commercial release. Examples:


And that begs a couple of questions. First of all, how picky are you? Some people can sit down to any game and enjoy it. Others have a more critical eye. If you're the former you'll be able to say things like "I've backed 20 games and am happy with all of them." You need to assess your own self to make that decision. Asking your friends to assess you won't result in a pleasant conversation.

And secondly, how good are you at picking winners? I always feel that I don't have enough information to judge, but I'm much more conservative with my purchases than most of you here. When I put money up on Kickstarter I don't trust that I've made the right call, which is often born out by my non-Kickstarter purchases (Captain Sonar, my most recent bad decision.)
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06 Oct 2017 09:19 #255294 by Sagrilarus

charlest wrote: Kickstarter has helped me pay for much of my hobby expenses as reselling pledges can be quite lucrative. I haven't lost money on a single pledge after having backed somewhere around 40 games over the years. I even made money off Sedition Wars. Much of it is timing.


That's a game in itself.
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06 Oct 2017 09:22 #255295 by the_jake_1973
I Kickstart more miniature stuff than games, but the games I have Kickstarted have been decent. I don't begrudge a snake oil salesperson to put up a shit game and fleece idiots of their money. Hopefully, it makes them learn to be more cognizant of how they vet their luxury purchases. It is the ultimate 'let the buyer beware' marketplace and if consumers don't realize that, too bad. Do your homework, make a judgement call, live with the consequences. It is no different than going to the casino or buying stock.

Backed:
In Tenebris Lux: dungeon crawling card game. I liked the art and it was cheap. It may be good, possibly reminiscent of Dungeoneer.
Tecno Bowl: no regrets
Arcadia Quest and expansions/Masmorra: sweet game, fun to paint minis.
Reaper Bones 1/2/4: good stuff. All still unpainted
Zombicide Horde: I anticapte that I will enjoy this based on previous Zombicide experience
Red Dragon Inn: Villians: no regrets
Malevolence PC game: poopy
Impact City Roller Derby: I used to ref roller derby and I like Tom Anders. It is a cool game
Random Dungeon Generator as a map: I love this thing. A great representation of the random D&D tables.

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06 Oct 2017 09:31 #255296 by san il defanso
I've only Kickstarted three completed projects. One was the Kremlin reprint, which I don't exactly regret, but I would just as soon have spent the money on an old Avalon Hill copy. The second was Omen: Edge of the Aegean. Small Box has a quick turnaround on their Kickstarters, so that was not much of a risk. Lastly, I have backed the second edition upgrade kit for Argent.

(Argent is bar none the best game I've played that came through Kickstarter.)

One effect of Kickstarter that is starting to irritate me a lot is that of edition confusion. This existed before Kickstarter obviously, but crowdfunding has sped up the edition churn on lots of games, because a second edition that benefits from a ton of community development seems to be inevitable. I'm thinking of games like Omen: Reign of War, which is going into it's FOURTH edition since 2011 this spring, or Puzzle Strike, which churned so quickly that I just gave up on the system entirely. Sure, you could keep and play your old edition, but if people want to try a game, they want to try the most recent iteration. You could always upgrade, but good luck unloading the old version.

This is probably the thing that makes me the most cautious to invest in Kickstarter titles, even at the retail level. It feels almost automatic that a game will get a new revised edition within just a matter of months.

I also am a little skeptical of the need for Kickstarter, because there are still some people who do this whole thing the old-fashioned way. Brett Murrell self-published Duel of Ages II without any crowdfunding, and Jim Felli has published three games and one expansion without Kickstarter. No matter how much I loosen up on my opinion of Kickstarter, I still resent making the consumer the one who assumes the financial risk, rather than the person who actually wants to publish this thing.
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06 Oct 2017 09:46 #255297 by jpat
Replied by jpat on topic In Defense of Kickstarter
Are we confessing sins? I've had pretty good luck, but I've tried to keep it reined in and do some homework (not always sufficient).

The good to very good:
Cthulhu Wars, though I've only really back for OS2. (I have a toe in for OS3, but I'm kind of inclined to just let it go, as the only thing I really want are any additional errata fixes for existing stuff, because having those post-OS2 was great, but that's not worth $200, and I can pretend that the game stopped there. But ... who knows? When the pledge manager invite finally comes to me, I might change my mind. We play this one quite a bit, but it's hard to imagine needing yet another shelf for it.)
Anachrony. Haven't played it as much as I'd like, but that's true of pretty much everything. I find it to be a great, evocative, yet manageable game with a nifty time-travel/apocalypse theme.
Trickerion. Also from Mindclash (and I only sort of regret not backing Cerebria, but even after watching part of a playthrough video I still didn't get it, really). Great presentation, awesome theme, maybe just a bit too heavy for its own good, but neither Mindclash game so far has demonstrated the lack of polish that I agree is a common issue with Kickstarted games.
Mare Nostrum Empires. Got it with everything, including chips and mat. The chips are absolutely fabulous; the mat came wrinkled and I never could quite fix it entirely. The game is a good improvement in many ways over MN, which I also still have, but you still need people to understand how it works, and no one's ever clamoring for it enough to get past the "surprise" ending aspect. Academy did a great job of handling the variable-number-of-players issue that was a problem with MN. But I'm also off Academy KSs because you can just preorder the game almost right up to release with all the trimmings.
Tech!No!Bowl. Played only a couple of times, but this is a game with a lot of heart and a good example of both a great campaign and a good end product that might've had a hard time finding an outlet.
I, Spy. This one's actually pretty good, with a setting in pre-WWI Europe.
Twilight Struggle digital. I haven't played with the hardcopy expansion and have thought of selling it off when demand's been high (because I just don't play the base game enough to worry about it), but the digital implementation is excellent.

The OK
Conan. Played it just the once and enjoyed it, but the problems with this one are pretty well documented (though I didn't find the rulebook a real problem). Just so much stuff, and kind of why I'm trying to avoid "big" games these days. I just have trouble getting over the hurdle of dragging it out, unpacking it, and packing it back up.
The Demise of Doctor Frankenstein. Not a big game, and it wasn't very much and my wife likes the Frankenstein theme. We've played this a few times and enjoyed it, but it has a distinct messiness that keeps it from being more than mediocre.
Viceroy. Another tableau builder in a crowded field.
Age of Conan expansion. I even re-bought the base game because this looked like it would fix the game's problems. It didn't, really. It's not bad, but it's a long, fairly dry, weaker reimplementation of WotR's mechanics for multiplayer. There are many better games out there.

The poor
Yashima: Legend of the Kami Masters. I'm glad I backed down on my pledge level at the last minute (but I still bought the expansions). The theme and idea are great, but there are quite a few issues, not least of which miniatures that don't show facing in a game that relies on facing. Might be worth another shot (after putting some dots or something on the minis).
Victory in Europe. Never played it, so I should probably put it in the final category, but this one has been dogged with numerous rules problems and has gone through at least a couple rulebook revisions. None of them quite make it the easy, fast-playing game Columbia promised. A game that was probably truly a victim of both Columbia meddling and stretch goal bloat that drastically altered the card deck by expanding it.
New York 1776. A dog, in my opinion, and why I won't buy any more Worthington games probably ever, or at least not on preorder. As a minor thing, even buying the extra set of blocks they sold was not enough for all the stretch goal stickers.
Haggis. Just a reprint. The cardstock is a little better if still not optimal, but it's a solid game.

The unknown
Sunrise City: Nights!. Should give it a try because we like SC. Never thought I would actually see this one because of the publisher's collapse, but surprise, surprise.
Doomtown Reloaded expansion. I like DR so far, so I'm assuming this will be good. Props to Pine Box/Pinnacle for re-reloading the game after AEG canceled it, and the KS was done very well and accommodated casual and all-in players (and is even making the errata cards widely available).
Thunderstone Quest. Assume it will be at least decent. Thunderstone Advance is/was one of our favorite games. This one's ... recognizable but quite a bit different, so the jury's out.
Clans of Caledonia. Looks very promising--I like Terra Mystica--and we love a Scottish theme, which was the original inducement.
Thunder Alley: Crew Chief. More Thunder Alley is probably good if unnecessary.
Cthulhu's Vault. Might be good? Kind of a messy rulebook and some component issues, and follows the same, tired Arkham Horror concepts.
Fief. Another nice presentation by Academy, but I doubt I'll ever get anyone to try it. I've got all the stuff, though. :/
Ars Victor. This actually isn't bad, but my interest in it is pretty low because I'd probably rather play Commands and Colors any day. I feel bad for the designer, who had such high hopes but overreached and over-expected and is only now sort of recovering, as far as I can see, and trying to finish aspects of the game.
Guns of Gettysburg. Still under wraps. Too scary without someone who understands how to play it, I think.

The canceled
Dungeon Saga. Dodged a bullet there by canceling my pledge.
Mythic Battles: Pantheon. Might well be good, but I realized I didn't need yet another skirmish game that would take up tons of room and cost a fortune to go all-in on. The fact that each expansion seemed to have KS exclusive content that wouldn't be at retail, rather than just a "box" of extras, was a turn-off for just going in at a low level.

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06 Oct 2017 09:48 #255299 by lj1983
Replied by lj1983 on topic In Defense of Kickstarter
so, backing a game, realizing it sucks, then selling your pledge for profit is a win?

I'm not sure I agree. I see the logic and props to people who can do that. The one game I did this for, I made a significant amount of money on, but I still count it as a KS failure. I don't purchase a ton of games, so when I pick one to back, I get invested in it and am unhappy when it turns out poor.
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06 Oct 2017 09:54 #255300 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic In Defense of Kickstarter

lj1983 wrote: so, backing a game, realizing it sucks, then selling your pledge for profit is a win?

I'm not sure I agree. I see the logic and props to people who can do that. The one game I did this for, I made a significant amount of money on, but I still count it as a KS failure. I don't purchase a ton of games, so when I pick one to back, I get invested in it and am unhappy when it turns out poor.


Usually for me, I do a lot of research on a project and its creators. I look at downside risk and possible upside. I tend to back things that I'd like to possibly keep but may immediately sell, depending on where I'm at when it's getting close to delivery. This process never fails me.

I'm not sure I'd say selling a game for a profit that sucks is a win, but in the greater conversation of duds and kickstarter, I've found it trivial not getting stuck with a dud. That makes the process palatable as it's improved my gaming outlook (given me games such as KDM, 7th Continent, Techno Bowl, Blood Rage, etc.), while never backfiring on me. So I think it's appropriate in a conversation about the merits of Kickstarter.

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06 Oct 2017 10:02 #255301 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic In Defense of Kickstarter
From personal experience, I know that playtesting is hard. It doesn't take a lot of playtesting to identify major problems, but you need to keep playtesting the fixes to make sure that the game is working right. You need to stay open to criticism but also hold on to the core concept of the game because some playtesters want your game to be some completely different game. And then there is the prototyping, the technical writing, and the proofreading required after a significant revision. All of this is easier with a co-op or solitaire game than with a game that involves bidding or bluffing, because the designer can do a lot of playtesting without other players. Maybe one reason I have had good luck with my one kickstarter plus the post-kickstarter buys is that I have been getting games that are co-op or solitaire.
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06 Oct 2017 10:05 - 06 Oct 2017 10:06 #255302 by fastbilly1
It is easy to get caught up in the mania of a well run Kickstarter. I have had to bring myself back down a couple times recently.

What I appreciate about Kickstarter is that it lets small teams release a big game in a more niche sections of gaming. Like the Elzra team in Canada who makes Catacombs. They are two friends who had an idea for a game and had troubles getting any company to take them seriously, even after 1st edition printed. They had people constantly asking for an updated version, so they went to Kickstarter. Yes the campaign had exclusives that sell for stupid amounts on the secondhand market, but the core game is solid.

Then again, this is fresh on my mind since there followup game, Catacombs and Castles, should be on my doorstep this evening...
Last edit: 06 Oct 2017 10:06 by fastbilly1.
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06 Oct 2017 10:16 - 06 Oct 2017 10:17 #255303 by Michael Barnes
Here's the truth of it, as Nate hinted around. Anyone can produce a game. Look at Nate Hayden, Felli, Murrell, and others. What every armchair can not do is finance and mount a large, FFG-style game with lots of miniatures, an attendant product line. This idea that there are games or unique concepts that would otherwise never be made is bullshit. Blood Rage, Cthulhu Wars, KDM...all of those games COULD exist without Kickstarter backing as true independent publications- but at a smaller scale and without such expensive components.
Last edit: 06 Oct 2017 10:17 by Michael Barnes.
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06 Oct 2017 10:22 #255304 by san il defanso

Michael Barnes wrote: Here's the truth of it, as Nate hinted around. Anyone can produce a game. Look at Nate Hayden, Felli, Murrell, and others. What every armchair can not do is finance and mount a large, FFG-style game with lots of miniatures, an attendant product line. This idea that there are games or unique concepts that would otherwise never be made is bullshit. Blood Rage, Cthulhu Wars, KDM...all of those games COULD exist without Kickstarter backing as true independent publications- but at a smaller scale and without such expensive components.


Felli, Murrell, and Hayden all produced some really strange games with selective appeal that actually SHOULD be better suited to Kickstarter. Jim can probably confirm this, if he shows up here, but I think one of his reasons for self-funding was that he wanted the ability to design the game on his own terms, rather than being beholden to market forces. You see that most in Shadows of Malice, which is so against the modern trend in game design that I'm impressed it found an audience at all.

And Felli and Murrell didn't compromise on the components, at least not in terms of quality and durability. All of their games are really sturdy and well-produced, even if you don't like the actual art.
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06 Oct 2017 11:26 - 06 Oct 2017 11:28 #255305 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic In Defense of Kickstarter

Michael Barnes wrote: all of those games COULD exist without Kickstarter backing as true independent publications- but at a smaller scale and without such expensive components.


You make it sound like having a large scale, more expansive scope, or higher quality components is just fluff. The scope of some of these games is a huge factor of enjoyment. A stripped down 7th Continent would not be nearly as enjoyable. Placing Cthulhu on the board as a small warped mini would actually remove an element of fun.

A great example of the benefit here is looking at Battlestations, a game I just got re-acquainted with. Back when CMON started their run on Kickstarter I remarked how BS would be the perfect game for it. The old edition was junk. The thin tiles were warped and you played with these crappy standees that were annoying to handle. The new edition with minis and thick tiles is gorgeous. We're playing GAMES, the toy factor and visuals matter.
Last edit: 06 Oct 2017 11:28 by charlest.
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06 Oct 2017 11:29 #255306 by Sagrilarus

Michael Barnes wrote: What every armchair can not do is finance and mount a large, FFG-style game with lots of miniatures, an attendant product line.


Yeah, and more than a few of them can't manage the project either. So some new guy gets handed half a million dollars and still can't execute. I'd wager that virtually none of these people have a business plan that would pass muster in front of a bank officer for a loan, in spite of a project specifically designed to bring in positive revenue.

Given Kickstarter's cachet I think it's easy to get funded. When it becomes a utility like eBay has, things will be harder. Don't know when that will happen.

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