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× Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.

Let's talk DUEL OF AGES II

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12 Feb 2014 07:42 #171784 by wkover
I can safely say that this thread has quashed my interest in buying/playing DoA2. I'm pretty sure I don't fall into the sub-subset of people who will enjoy this game.

By the way, the negative comments for DoA2 on BGG are pretty funny. Some of my favorites:

This game is a ridiculous experience. Kind of like the 'sharknado' of games. Full of fiddly rules that read like something from a 1977 Avalon Hill war game before it got to the editors desk. So much complexity for very little benefit, as most things that happen, feel almost totally random....At the end of the day, that this game has a good ranking is the single most surprising thing I have ever seen on BGG.

This game looks like it was printed in the past and stored in a warehouse that said "Do not open until 2013".
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12 Feb 2014 09:06 #171786 by Shellhead
If those comments are accurate, it sounds like a legitimate problem with the game. It is possible to bury an otherwise good game in excessive chrome. Maybe even too much randomness could be a problem, too, if it inhibits playing with any sort of actual strategy.

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12 Feb 2014 09:56 #171792 by SuperflyPete
That guy clearly never played Fortress: America.

The rules aren't complex. They're not even that copious.
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12 Feb 2014 18:33 #171815 by Michael Barnes
It's WAY less complicated and rules-laden than many beloved AT classics. Arkham Horror is MUCH more complicated, fiddly and flakey as is TI3.

It's VERY straightforward. It is NOT full of chrome. In fact, there really isn't any chrome- the rules are actually a very generalized system that would work for ANY kind of man-to-man scale melee or ranged combat...WITH vehicles, equipment, weapon variety, animals, and other things added with cards but NOT additional rules.

There is PLENTY of strategy, just as much as in any Squad Leader-descended combat game. Coordinating abilities and functions is important. Making the most of your gear and reacting to enemy position/action is what the game is all about.

I think the idea that it's some kind of ultra-niche game is overstated. The "niche" is made up of the kinds of people that are worth playing games with. Anybody not in its "niche" is probably playing games for a different reason than I am, that's for sure.
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12 Feb 2014 18:43 #171816 by Shellhead
Then Duel of Ages II definitely sounds like my kind of game. I had my on the original for a while, but I didn't have any opportunity to try it first, and the stuff that I was reading about it at BGG gave me doubts. This new edition looks like a game I would enjoy.

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13 Feb 2014 13:21 #171833 by SuperflyPete
This kind of sums it up, and I think Mike can back me up on this: This game is for EVERYONE, <<<EXCEPT>>> people that have to be handheld. This game is as much a sandbox as anything, with very tight rules. The ahalogy is that this is Grand Theft Auto, and you have to like the freedom under the confines of broad rules, where the guys who won't like this are more Space Harrier guys ... they want the gameplay, but it's got to be finite and on rails.

Really, even the hand-held people I don't get the dislike. You can play Mission 1 right out of the box and be fine with it, no fuss, no muss, no ~thinking or imagination~ required.

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13 Feb 2014 18:45 #171846 by Hex Sinister
I've been fiending hard for this game for like three weeks. I can't stand it any more AAGH.
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13 Feb 2014 19:04 #171848 by Michael Barnes
Dude, it plays really well solo...just run two three or four character teams and get your kicks. You don't get the surprise reveals and the joy of shared narrative but the mechanics, tactics and fun are all still there.

"Space Harrier guys"...that cracked me up.

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14 Feb 2014 10:21 #171896 by Stonecutter
How is everyone storing this? I traded for a full collectors edition and the base game box was beat to hell and the whole thing was only half punched, so after getting everything out I couldn't get it all back in and kinda got frustrated so I set it all back on the shelf in a mess. I really want to play it but first I need to sort it and that's just kind of a nightmare right now.

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28 Sep 2017 11:17 - 28 Sep 2017 11:18 #254947 by san il defanso
I'm performing some thread necromancy to talk about Duel of Ages II some more.

So I posted on this thread like three years ago, and I pretty much feel totally different on the game now. Part of this change was driven by my last game, which really reinforced to me that DoA2 is a thin veneer of goofy Wiz-War style action, coating a fairly beefy tactical game. As I posted in the "what are you playing lately" thread, it's not a silly game first and foremost. It's a deep tactical game where the strategy is largely in the setup, and that has a lot of silly trappings.

I also don't know what I was talking about when I said the game doesn't give you clear goals. It turns out that the game gives you definite goals to accomplish, but no clean way of tracking them. That's why I eventually made little index cards for each achievement, giving the players something more obvious to look at while they learn. There's also a little card you can get from the Duel of Ages II website that helps you track the combat achievement, which I find useful. You order it for like $5 and it comes autographed by Brett Murrell.

The complication looked much worse to me before I became more familiar with game genres besides board games. I see the wargame DNA a lot stronger now, especially in the OpFire phase. HexSinister, in the games played thread, mentioned that he finds that phase overly complicated. That's not been the case for me, but I see how it looks that way. The other big thing is the combat resolution, which has a separate check for the attack and for the damage. That's a lot like an RPG, and I understand that now. Not so much in 2014.

Lastly, the Codex has really reframed my understanding of the whole game. It's not primarily an activity, there's definitely a lot of game there. It's just that I was so wrapped up in the goofy stuff that I never really gave it much thought. Picking your team is a little like building a deck in a CCG or an army in a minis game. Not only that, but selecting the platters is like the setup in Twilight Imperium. This is all stuff that happens right away that wasn't obvious to me. Lastly, the game really rewards the players who use their characters in clear roles. Obviously they can't all just do whatever. When you try that it looks like a huge mess. This is all really obvious stuff, but it's taken me years of reflection and a lot of insight from the designer to get there.

The result is that I still love Duel of Ages II. But now I realize better what kind of game it is, and it's made me appreciate it much more.
Last edit: 28 Sep 2017 11:18 by san il defanso.
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28 Sep 2017 11:27 #254950 by Gary Sax
Going off what you're saying, I think it's easy to get sucked in by this thing that you kind of internalize that out and out AT games are just like fluffy fun. Maybe, but I think a lot of that is from the years and years of prejudice against AT games from eurogamers that has mostly subsided now. Like, games with dice and weird settings and shit can be *very* strategic.

It reminds me of people writing off shadows of malice as random when it's immensely, suffocatingly strategic in some ways. Like, yes, you roll way too many dice or whatever but the items are so powerful and you can retreat costlessly so you really need to plan out carefully which terrains you're going to be in and which items you have to win.
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28 Sep 2017 11:31 #254952 by san il defanso

Gary Sax wrote: Going off what you're saying, I think it's easy to get sucked in by this thing that you kind of internalize that out and out AT games are just like fluffy fun. Maybe, but I think a lot of that is from the years and years of prejudice against AT games from eurogamers that has mostly subsided now. Like, games with dice and weird settings and shit can be *very* strategic.

It reminds me of people writing off shadows of malice as random when it's immensely, suffocatingly strategic in some ways. Like, yes, you roll way too many dice or whatever but the items are so powerful and you can retreat costlessly so you really need to plan out carefully which terrains you're going to be in and which items you have to win.


This is true of Zimby Mojo as well. That game looks completely bananas, and it totally is, but the key is that the waves of chaos can be ridden very effectively. It just rewards a different kind of strategy than is commonly rewarded by Eurogames.
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28 Sep 2017 12:05 #254957 by Shellhead
Reading recent remarks has me interested in Duel of Ages II again. But then I go looking for images and find this:



Those aren't cards, they're small rpg character sheets, crammed with icons and numbers. The art is nice, but the overwhelming impression is one of information overload. It's the same kind of issue that I had with Earth Reborn.

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28 Sep 2017 12:35 - 28 Sep 2017 12:35 #254959 by hotseatgames
There are a lot of stats, but they are pretty manageable since you only need to reference a couple of them at a time, and there are reference cards. The other thing that might not be apparent is that those cards are huge, so you aren't squinting at them.

The backside has a whole back story for the character. It's insane. I've never read one.
Last edit: 28 Sep 2017 12:35 by hotseatgames.

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28 Sep 2017 13:01 - 28 Sep 2017 13:02 #254962 by lj1983
Replied by lj1983 on topic Let's talk DUEL OF AGES II
a lot of stats, but you need that many stats to have all the different characters be unique without each character having a ton of special skills.

There are 3 ranged combat stats. Tthey make the difference between a pistol gunfighter, a long range sharpshooter and a grenade throwing quarterback. Could the stats have been cut down and then limited the number of characters. Sure, but that would have taken some of the charm out of the game.
Last edit: 28 Sep 2017 13:02 by lj1983.
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